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> MMO Play time, time spent to play
Matlush
post Dec 19 2006, 08:36 AM
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Whee, welcome aboard! XD

Well.... One thing I dislike about MMO's is that they're addicting. Good MMO = more addicting... So my latest idea was that after some time played in game a message like "Ok, now stand up and do a few pushups." or "YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING FOR 12 HOURS. You could use some of that time to grind some real life dexterity points!"should be shown XD


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Jerky
post Dec 19 2006, 10:40 AM
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I have to agree with Matlush. Although 99.9% of people will hate me for saying it, China is on to something there. We could make characters get tired and less effective after, say, 8 hours of uninterrupted gameplay.

This does, however, seem to stem from a more fundamental problem. People who play more have more money, have more experience, are more powerful and just have a better chance at doing some of the cool things in the game. If we can find a way to stop that, we would not have to go to any communistic measures to keep players from ruining their Real Lives.

Any ideas?


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Minthos
post Dec 20 2006, 09:19 AM
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I don't think griefing players who spend a lot of time logged in is going to do us or them much good really. I agree with the motivation, to even out the balance between people who spend too much time and people who don't spend enough time, as well as encouraging the hardcore crowd to play less per day but keep coming back for several years.

One thing I'm leaning more and more towards is skill increase being based on rl time (as in eve), not on grinding(as in pretty much every mmo in existence). That, combined with a reduced emphasis on items compared to many games, should remove some of the incentive to abandon real life completely, yet encourage people to stay with the game for longer periods. More details on this idea can be found elsewhere.

Another point to be made is a bitter lesson that wow has taught us; we shouldn't require players to regularily assemble 40-ish people for minium 2-3 hours several days a week to play the game as it's intended, nothing ruins people's lives or alienates the casual players as much as that. It's not a bad idea in itself, it has taken teamplay to another level entirely than what most other games have, but there must be a way of achieving that without requiring people to cancel all their dates for the next 6 months.
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Tegan
post Dec 20 2006, 10:10 AM
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As I stated in another thread, MMO's are based on a very time honored formula: T + G = P, Time Spent + Gear = Power. You can tweak that formula and play with the variables, but your average MMO player is going to want to see a variation on that formula in place.

In reality, what games don't you get better at when you spend a lot of real life time on them? Are the best RTS and FPS players in the world not generally the best because they spend a ton of time playing those games? Is it considered an unfair advantage in those genres? No, not realy...so why is it in MMO's? You can say "Well, those FPS and RTS gamers are not really gaining anything by playing all those long hours"...they aren't? Skill, practice, experience? In that case, they are their character! In an MMO you just abstract that away a level, such that the users character is the one gaining skill, practice and experience.

I think penalizing players for playing as long as they want is counter productive in the end. If players want to play your game for 12 hours on a Saturday, who are you to stop them? You can't be the real life police for people.

I agree and disagree with Minthos point. I agree that forcing players to form large teams to get the best stuff and experience the best content is not good, but giving them some kind of incentive to fight in well coordinated teams of 15 or 20 is NOT BAD. Some of the best times I had in WoW were early in my raiding career, watching 20 or 40 people work as a well oiled machine and take out an encounter or a piece of content. It can be fun, contrary to popular belief. Yes, WoW took it to the extreme, and that wasn't good...but wiping out the idea of large team play all together isn't good either. Large team play and be extremely fun and rewarding with the right team and it adds a level of meta-game that doesn't exist without it. These are social games after all, you should have to be social at least a little bit to reach the ultimate goals.
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Melanthe
post Dec 20 2006, 11:42 AM
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Spoken like a true addict, Tegan! wink.gif

I don't mean to sound moralistic on this--but while we aren't the real life police of people's lives, we do have some ethical considerations in this area, in my opinion, just as purveyors of cigarettes and alchohol do. Actually I am wary of using the word "addiction" because it's so loaded, but the fact is that mmrpg's--to all outward evidence--do engage those brain circuits of pleasure and, more to the point, anxiety about getting the next chance to feel that pleasure (the white rat hitting the dopamine lever instead of eating), that other activities of this sort do.

I totally agree that "punishing" players for playing is not the answer. But if we are open and creative and don't deny the actual fact of what is going on in an mmrpg--the behavioral aspects--we may be able to come up with some ways to minimize the real life detrimental effects at least on some players. This kind of behavior is well-studied outside of games, and we should draw on that knowledge to do what we can to limit the negative effects of extreme patterns of repetitive, "addictive", I-can't-stop-even-if-I-want-to behavior.

This may range from something as simple as trying to make repetitive keystrokes in crafting sequences short and physically easy so that they do not encourage tendonitis, to much more sophisticated approaches to player activities.

As to the large group raids and such--this game is not primarily quest-based, so we won't have quests where you gather a bunch of players and go kill the biggest boss in order to get the phat loot. People may want to join together to do certain things but it won't be in a sequence orchestrated by the game itself, or a set sequence that every player follows. This game is based on the inspiration of Wish--and Wish was (somewhat) based on Ultima Online, both of which had open and flexible game play styles and stories.

The quests in this game will be to direct the player into the overall possibilities built into the content, rather than ends in themselves. The players will create their own goals--and if a massive raiding party to accomplish some task is their goal, that's well and good. But it won't be something that we hand them an incentive, like loot or titles, to do. They will do it for their own reasons. We hope to have many reasons for many people to do many things built into the game.

I know this sounds a bit radical and avant garde, especially in the age of WoW, but the quest-oriented large raiding party phat loot type of game is well-serviced in the market now. We can't be all things to all players and there will be players who don't want to participate in this kind of game. The Wish beta proved that--there were players who left in disgust because they couldn't figure out "what I'm supposed to do." But the rest of us, those who loved that short and intense experience are looking for a game of a different sort, and that's why we drew together here.

It's a great and wonderful challenge!

Melanthe, Creative Director and World Concepts Lead


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Jerky
post Dec 20 2006, 12:03 PM
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Thats what I was getting at really. I completely agree that that formula is how games do it, and what I am suggesting is that we rewrite it with new variables. Essentially throw it out completely, if you will. We have all the freedom in the world to come up with something better and more balanced, so that means we need to think outside the box sometimes.

As Melanthe said, Wish (and UO) were a bit different. That doesn't mean large groups don't happen, they just don't happen to do a cookie-cutter, instanced, boring quest that can be repeated over and over. I remember in beta joining up with my whole town to fight an invasion. We had well over 30 people, but the action was live, and it never happened again (meaining, the same thing never happens twice). The live story content is a must for us to recapture some of the things needed to make a game that can provide that feeling to people.

We have the freedom to make the game we want. We do NOT have to cater to power gamers if we don't want to. Let that freedom allow you to consider ideas that you wouldn't normally think of. I am not saying current MMO's have nothing we can use, I am just saying we don't have to use any of it, if we don't want to.


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Matlush
post Dec 20 2006, 01:41 PM
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The art of forcing people to do something but not directly (Damn, that sounded a bit dark sided)... I suck at it XD Well, that's why I'm for "Smoking causes cancer" type for texts showing up from time to time (1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, 5 hours, etc, etc), also allowing them to turn off... Well, also we could make characters getting tired after some time, resulting in higher failure rate, slower stamina regain, like Jerky said. This could be, hm, reversed with sleeping (log outing/going to bed). Also some kind of coffeine-like booster... So, still you can play at full speed 24/h a day. Also, the whole getting tired stuff could depend more on the character rather than system.

Another reference to Wurm, yay!: There are beds in there, tho' they provide bonus to skill gain and stamina regain. I mean - you don't get penalty for playing too long, but you can log out in a bed to get exp faster. Well, it works... but not that well.

But, well, about RTS and FPS players... well, the thing with MMORPGs is that they somehow require a LOT less thinking to achieve uberness. Mostly time only, and here's the problem. FPS and RTS players use their own skill (i call that player own skill XD) while in MMORPGs you use mainly your character's skill. Sure, some tactics, when, how, etc is involved, but SURELY not in a RTS or FPS level. Also, reflex in those type of game is really important, so, well, it's sometimes better to get a good sleep than go and improve your skills.

Well, the whole thing is to give players freedom... But what kind of freedom ? Freedom without penalties ? Well, it's a role playing game... role playing, and a game, + MMO. MMO = crowd control. You control the crowd with the system in game. System can give freedom or not. To create a roleplaying game, you need to achieve some things. In singeplayer games system didn't have to be so.. polished, to make the player "roleplay". But when we go MMO... Things are getting complicated. It's still about system, but the system will affect the players directly, and indirectly by players affecting on players. How exactly ? That depends on the system. System can affect players in many ways... System can force players to craft items (mobs not dropping items, or NPC not having their infinitife amounts), it can force players to go to sleep ingame (this thingy overally described here), it may help players roleplay (customizable stuff, some "reality", etc). Still, MMO is MMO. That means people playing it. People can affect eachother, but not beyond the system. (If people can't kill themselfs because there is no such option, they won't do it.), so the people's field of affecting each other is set by the system.

Maybe another example to understand what I mean... The real world's system is limited by laws of psychics. We've got freedom to do what we want, but we'll suffer from what we do. If I'd lift up something heavy - it wouldn't be easy for me, i'd feel pain, but I would do it. If I'd be stronger, I could lift up some more things. We cannot do something beyond the laws of psychics. A cell cannot grow up istelf to great sizes. I cannot jump 10 meters high, because my muscles are limited, and because the gravity of 9.81N exists.

By the way: we've gone offtopic XD


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RicoSuave
post Dec 21 2006, 03:51 PM
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Since I agree with many people on this thread, I feel that I don't need to recap what's already been said. No *new* idea will come from it anyway.

However, I would like to point out that I play video games to escape reality, not face another aspect of its brutality. I play games that allow me to suspend my disbelief and place myself in the character's position. For a short example, maybe I wish I could be a great archer and discover great monsters of far-off lands and bloodthristily slay them and mount their heads on my wall; or perhaps be a great politician in the land helping to preserve the rights and freedoms of all citizens everywhere; or maybe even just be the richest land Baron and greadily horde land and taxes just to ironicly meet my end and take nothing with me into the underworld of death (if we do in fact use that FANTASTIC idea -- I still support it 100%).

I don't want to play the game while grinding weed-pulling so that my farmer will just be able to make ends meet. I want to be able to get into the game and do/explore/fight/win/die/experience everything. I don't care so much about becoming better than the Jones', just better than my task at hand (unless I'm PvPing, in which case I *need* to be better than Jones cool.gif ). But for everything else, I'm fine with what the game has to offer. In my opinion, there should be 1001 different ways to play the game. In other words, I shouldn't feel like I have to pick up a sword to achieve happiness. In fact, I'm hoping it will be large enough that I might never even see ½ or more of the players in my lifetime.


(hmm) I think I've strayed too far off topic to try to bring it back full circle, so I'll just start again. laugh.gif


Great idea guys! Finding a way to keep players from (1) advancing too quickly, and (2) diminishing their RL intellect skills is important. Perhaps we could make it where skill gains are easier when first logging in (after 8-16 hours of inactivity or within the first 20 hours of each new week) and very slowly taper-off, even to the point of failure, after time has elapsed. If we had it where everyone had 20 hours per RL calendar-week of unaltered skill gains, then that could make it where players wouldn't have to feel like they had to log on every night (disregarding their family) to get a few critical minutes of gains. They could then set up a schedule or choose times throughout an entire week which they could plan on playing, and spend maybe one night a week as a Family Night. wink.gif

Who knows? This could be the game that saves Society and finally brings World Peace!!... rolleyes.gif
-- okay, maybe not --

If you don't agree with it, please look for ways where we can change or tweak this idea making it better. Even if you do agree with what I stated above, please look for ways where we can change or tweak this idea making it better.
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Dwilf
post Dec 23 2006, 11:27 AM
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I'm with Minthos for taking skill gain out of the grind sphere and doing it based on a constant, real-time advancment that carries on regardless of whether you are logged in or not.

Fatigue would be a great idea but then giving players an item to remove this effect would be make the inclusion of it pointless. Fatigue, if included, should only be removed by time spent logged out.

I've stated before that instanced raids have no place in a game like PW IMO, its a dynamic world so only one person or group can kill the "Chief Troublemaker" or quell the "3rd Riot of Harborside". Once a quest or job is done, its done. The world moves on and would-be heros must find other tasks to attempt.

If we don't have PermaDeath (I hope we do) then locking a character out after a death for a few hours would give the player time to partake of their real life. It would also stop characters re-spawning and getting back into a fight that their opponents should reasonably expect them to be out of having just killed them.


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Jerky
post Dec 23 2006, 12:55 PM
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My only problem with that is that the advantage then goes to those who make accounts on day 1. They are then the most powerful by defaut. That almost makes skills pointless. If its not one thing, its another. I think there is a better idea out there, but I'm not sure what it is yet.


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Arjag
post Dec 23 2006, 03:22 PM
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Ever played Guildwars? While it's not a real MMORPG their character advancement system is very interesting.

Guildwars has more than 1000 Skills which can be unlocked in different ways (questing, pvping, grinding). While you can unlock all of them, you can only equip 8 at a time. This way you can advance your character without becoming more powerful. A character created a few days ago can compete with a character created at game release without limiting players in their progress.
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Drizzit
post Jan 9 2007, 09:19 AM
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The fatigue thing is in WoW I think.
(ok basically the other way round)
- you get double points for killed monsters, when you are rested
- you get rested even when locked out (in a city)
-> this just makes people get alts to rotate while there other char is resting.

The skill over time is in EVE:
- you gain skill points in realtime, if you are logged in or not doesn't matter.
-> problem there is, you don't have any chance to catch up with someone ever.

The forced playtime / logoff for death are in some free and browserbased games:
-> they force you to play by the timetable set by the game


I'm not very happy with any system on it's own. The worst is the delay after death / forced plytime. When I have a weekend off and my girlfriend went away for 3 days I want to be able to play 20 hours continuosly - because I know quite well the next 3 month will be very busy and thats the last chance (just an example smile.gif )

In my opinion a combination of off-time and fatigue with a little standard training would be the best.
--> When loggin off the char is learning (by book or something) a little and gets rested. When logged on, the char can choose to learn by doing (much faster than offline learning) and gets fatigued. To rest he can either just log of, or use ingame resources to counter it (eating / drinking / using a bed for 5 min / ...)

The fatigue is not much of a problem, but to get the last 5% of effectivness they help.
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Zerotacg
post Jan 10 2007, 05:59 AM
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voyage century has some kind of idle sys
there are some tasks u don't really need to attend to do
for example getting wood or ore, if your bag is full or your energy is low it's stopped but basicly u can let it be for a hour or so.
This has 2 advantages, first it doesn't encourage macroing and second u have lots of time while playing so u could go shopping etc.

@Drizzit
I agree with a combination, seems best

maybe reality could give us a clue
if u learn (play the mmo) for hours and hours u sure will learn somthing, but wiith the time it gets harder to concentrate etc.
in gameplay it could result in higher fail rates (various kinds of) after a long time online so if u rest the char (idle while sitting or log off) you could regain
if setup correctly you might raise the skills fast if u attend the game for example 6h per day, but regularly, like school and catch up with others

if it's a free skill system there won't be alts cause it's just unpractical. Ryzom uses a free skill system, u can skill just everything to max (would take years though, cause the skill tree splits into lots of branches) that's why most wouldn't make alts cause they could pack the skills into one char and if the skilltree ends up in lots of branches most just won't spererate the skills on seperate chars
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Jerky
post Jan 10 2007, 11:58 AM
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I just had another interesting idea. That doesn't mean its a good one wink.gif. I was pondering some what-if's.

What if we allowed people to gain skills as much as they could, with not limits? What if they made uber characters that were warriors, magicians, and master crafters?

I have all along felt we do not want uber characters, but what if we made it so that when the total sum of all a player's skills got up to a point, everything started to gain skill slower? This would technically allow someone to make an uber character, but it would take a long, long, long time to do it. The other option we would allow for, is a skill remover. Whether this be from magic, or some quest or something, we could offer a quicker route, which would be to do something to get rid of your skill in 1 area, to allow another area to gain skill faster. This would allow a person to get to their goal quicker. They would have to prioritize what they want. If the person was totally sick of fighting, they might just be willing to lose fighting skill so they could become a crafter. If they wanted to be an uber character, they would have to make the choice to take the slow route, and grind it out. It is not glamorous, but it pleases a number of different types of player.

The alternative that other games provide would be 'alts.' Some people make alts because they like role playing, but most people who make alts do it for a reason. This is usually they want to try a different class or skill out, and they are forced to make another character to do so. Another reason to make alts (and Alter will tell you about this) is to exploit the game, using economy. Its a typical scamming mechanism to distribute money so you don't get caught. A lot of people in games make alts to launder money. This is, to make it not so obvious that it is 1 person/account making all this money, so they are less conspicuous. They don't want others knowing about the exploit, or scam, or business that they are running. It makes me think of the mob, actually. It is literally virtual scams wink.gif.

The reason I mention alts is, if we were to allow people to use their main character to try out other things, then there is no reason to create an alt just to try things out. This means that the only reasons to make alts would then be to scam or to role play. Heh, good luck determining who is doing what.

The next proposal for this idea would be that we only allow 1 character for 1 account (non-paying). They couldn't complain too much, because 1 character would still be able to try out all the different options in the game. This would also, imo, encourage proper roleplay, because players would take more time creating the character that they most want to be. The additional option we get from this is that we could give people the option to pay to unlock another character on their account. A lot of people would do it, so why not benefit the game from it. I am not implying we would make it rich this way, I am implying we would have a way to make money to support the game this way. There would still be a lot of people who would rather stick with 1 character for free, than pay for another character.

Again, as with most of my ideas, I am typing this as I think it, so it could be the worst idea ever wink.gif.


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joshpurple
post Jan 10 2007, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE(Jerky @ Jan 10 2007, 05:58 AM) *


Again, as with most of my ideas, I am typing this as I think it, so it could be the worst idea ever wink.gif.


But.., but.. that's MY Job! lol! laugh.gif

(That sounds very interesting Jerky, and this thread has been VERY cool to read! smile.gif )


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RicoSuave
post Jan 10 2007, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE(Jerky @ Jan 10 2007, 11:58 AM) *
The reason I mention alts is, if we were to allow people to use their main character to try out other things, then there is no reason to create an alt just to try things out. This means that the only reasons to make alts would then be to scam or to role play. Heh, good luck determining who is doing what.


YAY! No more Twinks! tongue.gif
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Minthos
post Jan 10 2007, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE(Jerky @ Dec 23 2006, 07:55 PM) *

My only problem with that is that the advantage then goes to those who make accounts on day 1. They are then the most powerful by defaut. That almost makes skills pointless.


This is why I'm for a system with abilities as wish had, with a limit to how many ability points you can spend(although you can move them around using respec points), and no limit to how many total skill points you can have. Ideally, the skill points gained from having the oldest character means your character is slightly better at one specific thing if he focuses his ability points on it, and/or he has a wider choice of abilities to choose from, while a year-old character who has chosen exactly the skills it needs for the abilities it wants to use, will be nearly as good at that task but lack the flexibility to respec to something different until he has trained the necessary skills.

Now I've reduced the importance of skills to unlock abilities, and made abilities the real limit to power. I also think skills should have a significant impact on how good you can put those abilities to use, but with a diminishing returns formula so that an acceptable level can be achieved quickly and the last inch takes a long time. There should also be some benefit to having skills trained even if you don't have any ability points in those skills, while the main usefulness/power comes from abilities.

What does this (aim to) achieve? A relatively fast increase in power early on in a character's life, and after a point (the point where you've spent all your ability points) advancement becomes either extreme specialization advancing very slowly, or a steady broadening of one's respec options - instead of simply more and more power as seen in previous games.

To compensate for the small difference in power that inevitably will be present, items and tactics should play a significant (but not overshadowing) role.

A pitfall here is to require too many skill points to unlock the most useful abilities, as that would shift focus away from ability points and onto skill points.

Eve has done that, with the introduction of "tech 2" ships and items, and capital ships. All three require several skills trained to max, and tech 2 items are simply more powerful versions of existing items. Some tech 2 ships are highly specialized, the capital ships are also highly specialized and prohibitively expensive and too slow for day-to-day use, but some tech 2 ships and all tech 2 items are simply more powerful than their tech 1 variants and inexpensive enough for most people to afford. Most notable are the large tech 2 long range guns, who are the main weapons in large-scale combat. They alone take months to train for, and more than half the fleet needs to use those guns (and some other tech 2 modules) or be pretty much useless in a fleet fight. It wasn't always like that; before tech 2 items were introduced, everyone used tech 1 guns which took a week or so to train for, so after 2-3 months they would have all the necessary skills for fleet warfare (and most of those skills would be considered basic skills that all combat pilots need, as opposed to the specialized sniping skills we need now).

So what I'm saying is that specialized stuff can take long to train, that's ok, but we shouldn't require the majority of players to specialize in order to be useful.



Well, this was a bit longer than I intended, at least now you know where I stand on this issue.
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Anigav
post Jan 10 2007, 10:26 PM
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EVE is definitely one of the most innovative games out there.

Why not go for something in the middle? I was thinking of something similar to Drizzit's book idea. You could queue up tasks for like 6 real hours that your character will "do" while you are logged off. If you study books, then your skill in the area that each book teaches will increase at a faster rate. Each book requires a certain amount of time.

Also, in terms of limiting skills, why not have a very high cap on the number of skills you can learn total. But the skills begin to decay over time (to a lower limit) if you do not use them a certain amount OR study them in books.

I'm not sure whether this would balance the game or just give power-gamers an even bigger advantage because they can keep all their skills at max, but I guess it's something to discuss.
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Drizzit
post Jan 11 2007, 08:28 AM
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1.) I was thinking along the diminshing line as well, when I read Jerkys post.

I wouldn't like the skillpoints to vanish just so. (e.g. if you don't use a sword for 2 RL months, you loose one level in sword-skill - that's something I wouldn't like at all) But if a char is specializing to be a true master in one field, he has to sacrifice something.
-> When training for a very advanced skill (in a open skill / ability system) the char concentrats on that skill and neclects all others. So the skill points (or whatever) are taken from all the other skills, diminishing them a little.

2.) The idea of abilities and skills sounds good to me (even as I didn't fully understood, what is what smile.gif )
-> You have to gain points in a general skill (tree-like system of general faculties - like fighting, magic, ...) These skill-points can be spent for specialized abilities, used to clear more advanced skills or just kept as general (if rather low) booster for all abilities in the skill. The abilities have to be studied and while studiing no new skillpoints are gained.
-> The more total skillpoints (in all skills) a char has, the slower the skillpoints come to him. This is to show, that he has to sacrifice time to keep his skills. For some abilities, skillpoints are removed from all skills, while studiing. This shows the dedication, needed to learn the advanced stuff. If by that requirements for skills or abilities are not matched anymore, that skills, abilities are removed (and can be learned again)

-->
- This will make advancement to an uber-char possible, but it has to be planned in advance (as even the sequence make a time-difference) and is getting slower and slower the further one goes.
-There is nearly no way, to have an all-rounder that is above average in every profession.
-While balancing, there is a real big freedom to the designer - and by inserting some new skills / abilities the balancing can be adjusted without big effort even in a running game.
-If the real points are obscured by a small amount of luck and not exact digits, it would be absolutly impossible to calculate the best way for a char
-By the multi-layered aproach, the combinations possible make for unique characters
-The system can be absolutly limitless, without making low-level useless (most of the high levels would have to sacrifice some low-level skills for there higher specialisation)

hmm - that got somehow longer and longer while writing smile.gif - I hope it got not to much out of hand, when my fantasy ran free smile.gif
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Maxwell
post Jan 11 2007, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE(Drizzit )
The idea of abilities and skills sounds good to me (even as I didn't fully understood, what is what )


My basic understanding of it was that ablilties are more like your natural talent, while skill is from using it. You will still have to earn abilities though. I could be very wrong. That's just how I interpreted it


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