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> Leaving the world and scripts, Going offline and safety.
Matlush
post Sep 30 2006, 10:09 AM
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How do you see it ? When does character log out, is he leaving the world or sleeping ? Also, there's something about stamina.

I've got these visions of going offline:

- Character logs off, and he disappears. Nothing is done to him.
+Logging off is easy thing to do.
+/- You're safe from monsters and other players.

- Character logs off, and he falls down as he is asleep in the world. Yet he can use beds instead of falling to the ground
+Realistic feature, and with it you could see which towns are good organized, and which not.
+Sleeping in bed would make your "long run*" stamina regain
+/- You're vurneable for monster/player attacks.
- Possibly too much people in world and near start area that are sleeping. Could cause lag.
- Could lead to frustating situation when you've got to get a safe place, and yet you need to log off as quick as possible.

- Character logs off, and he leaves the world. Yet he can use a bed to get a stamina regain boost. Guys in beds can be killed by players (or animals if they get to you)
+ Non frustating way.
+/- You can still choose between safety and buff gain.


* stamina that affects your short run stamina, which is used to do normal tasks.

Two last visions of logging off would allow scripting

Scripts would be only useable to protect yourself from getting killed when a raid on a town is done (and horns are sounded). You could only do move commands, attack commands, lock/unlock commands, equip command (which could allow only equip stuff that acts like armour or weapon)

So, when villagers are in sleep, and a raid is on, horn is sounded. It wakes up villagers, which can do thing related with their scripts. So, villagers could do such things:

- Some villagers gets up, equip their armors, and go fight with the raiders.
- Others lock themselfs in a safe area, which could be for example castle.
- And others run away to other city, or a hideout.

There could be a script maker, that would allow you to make a good moving and equipping script, but others could work like that:

If all villager pass the main gate from west, or enemy is 10m near main gate, then lock main gate.
If main gate locked, then equip short bow, equip leather armour, equip quiver, equip 100 arrows, and then move by getup(moving curve of some sort, that is saved on client), and then move to arrowpos4, and then attack enemy nearest.


Suggestion here: If one thing is not done, then just bypass it, so if there's no bow, then do other things, unless there's something like:

If equip short bow false, then equip crossbow. If equip crossbow false, then move by runaway.

If character is getting killed, scripts stop working, so there wont be any short bow equiping in outworld.

Fell free to comment it... or rather "please comment it" XD.


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joshpurple
post Sep 30 2006, 11:10 AM
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Cool Matlush, those are all good ideas to think about. I'm completely open to lots of different ideas on this.

One idea I've pondered is;

Character logs off >
The Player gets a pop-up list of options for when they are about to log off to select from >
one of the choices would be a selection of NPC AI scripts to run >
(like 'AI Sleep,' 'AI guard,' 'AI hide,' etc.) >
Character logs off >
Character logs back in >
Your character has been assigned an NPC AI >
Pop-up menu for choices >
Accept AI script, or reject AI script. >
If you accept, then your off line log will be put into your character's history >
Reject it, you resume play where you left off, your NPC toon continues as an NPC >
But, at that time, your NPC toon would lose all items, would not advance in skills, etc.

One reason for this would be, as you log back in, in your pop-up menu,
you would see, -before you accept or reject the AI script, if your
character had been killed or not. That way players have the option to
not log back in to a dead character.

But, then there's the cheating... always with the cheating smile.gif


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Dwilf
post Sep 30 2006, 11:17 AM
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Players being killable while the player is not in controll of the character is not a good idea. While realsitic I just can't see it being a good idea.
Scripitng or macros are also a bad idea, a character should have very few things automated. The player must play the character at all times. I don't even like auto-attack.

I'm all for players who log of in an inn room, a tent, thier home, etc to get some slow healing and item repairs (upto 8 game hours worth maybe). Players who just log out willy-nilly should log back in in exactly the same state as they left.


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joshpurple
post Sep 30 2006, 11:47 AM
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Yup! Dwilf makes an EXCELLENT point.


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Matlush
post Sep 30 2006, 01:43 PM
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Hm.... Well, yeah, macroing is a bad thing. But this isn't about it. If I'd have to chose between guard NPCs or players that can use their scripts to do some kind of automated defense, i'd chose the second one. Why ? Because it replaces a NPC filled gap. Yeah, I'm a NPC hater.

If players would stay in world, they would need (want maybe? ) self defense automation. And running is also a self defence. Sleeping in wilderness and waking up hearing some roaring, and then automating to kill the beast if it attacks me, well... Got to do that.

I've tought of it with such an imagination: While on raid, all the villagers ale asleep (and in world, too). Next day, they wake up dead. Easiest thing to solve it is to make players leave the world. And why i dislike when people leave the world ? Makes space so empty, and removes some kind of feature to roleplay... Tell me, what is happening to a person which is logging of ? Is he/she somehow transfered to the outworld and then back to realworld ? The biggest, baddest for me problem is that players place great importance to their characters. And it's not about that. It's about having fun from what you do, no matter what is it. Okay, but now it's offtopic :/ XD

So, overally: Leaving players in the world after they log out makes roleplaying feature, fun or not for some people. Automated self defence is something I'd say needed for guys who stay in the world. I'll put an example how would it look for a traveler. Yet still some may like it, some no. Atleast I'm not putting only the good examples here tongue.gif (but the bad ones still can be fun)

Humsahro is getting tired, but IRL he has to go somewhare. So, he wields a spear in his hands, also, some kind of leather armour, sets a campfire to disperse any animals coming. Now, he's laying his head on log covered with animal fur. Humsahro's player logs off, setting AI in log out menu to stand up and guard himself when he'll hear (and wake himself) any noises 10 meters near him.
Time passes, and a thief is sneaking near the Humsahro. He searches his inventory, but his breath wakes up Humsahro. Humsahro, as in AI, get's up and looks on the thief, saying nothing. Being noticed, thief walks away, and about 20 minutes later, Humsahro falls asleep. The thief is getting near him again, but this time, Humsahro wakes up seeing thief looking in his inventory. Now, his AI (i know i didn't mention it at the begining tongue.gif) stands up in the combat mode, aiming his spear at thief. Thief runs away again. Humsahro puts his backpack under his torso, and falls asleep again.
Thief again comes back, and kills the Humsahro piercing him with his knife. Humsahro didn't wake up, as he failed all his rolls to wake up from faint sounds. The thief takes his gold, and gets back to his hideout. He's getting a unhonorable murder karma point, as he killed a player while sleeping.
Humsahro's player gets back from (for example) work. As he logs on his game, he finds out his character in out world. He looks at the log from when he was not controlling him, and finds out that the murdered was a trader at some known company, as he recognizes his face. Being anyway frustaded with death of his character, Humsahro bought himself a tent, and entaglement spell to make sure he wont be killed again. Anyway, he now rents beds in inns also.


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njpaul
post Sep 30 2006, 02:37 PM
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I've imagined logging off where the character would disappear, probably with a cool magical effect to make it look good to players still in the game. When the player logs back on, s/he starts at the nearest "portal" where we allow spawning, possibly the same place where we could allow a magical transport system.
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Bingo
post Oct 10 2006, 08:44 AM
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Only problem with allowing people not to die when they are not in control leads to people logging off to avoid dying in a battle. One might argue that the beasts will still be there when they log back on, but there are just as many chances they won't be (an adventuring party... when you're about to die, log off, let your mates tell you on Teamspeak when it's safe).

If you log off in the "wild", there should be a 10-20 second period in which your character remains vulnerable. This would stop people logging off to avoid death.


Macros should be allowed to automate mundane tasks and stop everyone getting carpal tunnel syndrome unnecessarily. However, "number of actions a player can perform in x seconds" will still keep everone, macros or not, on the same footing.
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ppClarity
post Oct 10 2006, 09:59 AM
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Designing a code solution for "logging to avoid death" gets really touchy. Before you put pen to paper you have to consider two things first:

- What are the consequences of character death? Any chance of perma-death? How much of an inconvenience is it for the player?

- Server Lag. Network Lag. Server Bugs. Client Bugs. Driver Bugs. How many networks are between the server and the client?

In my Avlis (NWN) experience, bugs and network events are far more prevalent than cheaters. If you must, chalk that up to a more mature playerbase than your average MMO and a far more hostile (buggy) PW platform (NWN). You still need to think very carefully about balancing "logging" prevention, death penalties and death due to lag or external event.

I'm not advising against any such code, just pointing out the additional factors that may affect the design.

Logging should record if the disconnect was intentional or due to a timeout. An alternative to code prevention could be writing a trend analysis process that looks for potential exploits like this and flag them for human investigation.
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Bingo
post Oct 10 2006, 12:19 PM
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Whilst I agree that death to to lag is unfortunate, we can make a few assumptions:

1) We know the players lag, this could potentially be a factor in a "final" decision on the "death by lag" argument.
2) Logging off "cleanly" is user-action, by either clicking a "Exit" button or merely closing the application.

I'm sure testing will tell. smile.gif
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Matlush
post Oct 10 2006, 01:08 PM
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Hum... Anyway, i think as macroing is bad, then sending characters to sleep instead of making them leave the world would add some RPness. But the fact is, it's MMOcRPG that is made, not a MMOPnPRPG with 3d grasphics tongue.gif


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ppClarity
post Oct 10 2006, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE(Bingo @ Oct 10 2006, 02:19 PM)
2) Logging off "cleanly" is user-action, by either clicking a "Exit" button or merely closing the application.
*

Ahhh, the joys of having the source to your engine wink.gif
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Timmmy
post Oct 10 2006, 07:39 PM
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What about a few log off ideas involving a few of the above,well sort of.

You decide you have to go.If you're in a rush you simply hit recall and exit,wait the 5 seconds anti flee time and then are gone out of the world.In game you are recalled to your tp spot with the nice spell effects(thanks njpau wink.gif ) and here you stay,with a basic NPC script.For many guilds this would be a guild hall or simply upon the walls of the guild town.Others may tp to a workshop or somewere they have chosen before as a nice load in spot.

Your basic script would be to chose between agressive,defensive and rest.
Agressive: You will attack any enemies within a set radius.
Defensive: You will only attack if you are.
Rest:When you log in again all bars will be refilled(if logged out for 6 hours +)

The alternative is to mark your current position as recall,ride to were you want to log off and then hit just exit.With this you will simply leave game world in default mode with your char staying in game but when you re enter you can recall to previous location.

The final option is a pricey one.By resting in a tavern you are charged a continuos fee but you will also slowly get better at random things.So you could log off and come back ever so slightly stronger from bar brawls or find that you now know how to knit,badly.This would at least clear some inactive players off the server while also acting as a money drain and adding a little humour to the game,well maybe.
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Zerotacg
post Dec 23 2006, 04:57 PM
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Why to have the player being AI controlled while offline?
If your offline your unaviable.
If normal NPCs do stuff Players would you don't need the Players to be AI controlled.

As a player you know it's a game.
You know other players won't be arround all the time.
If someone is offline and would be AI controlled the character would be notheing else then a NPC, and is seen as that by other players.
The Name doesn't really matter. You could have NPCs appear randomly though like players appear cause the start playing the game etc.
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Honis
post Jan 10 2007, 11:59 PM
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I think an AI system for logging can work if the option to have the AI is available and the option to disappear is available.

(assuming pvp)
I would like to see the AI system because rumors can get spread that an enemy guild is going to raid your guilds city, but at what time is unknown. They could choose not to attack for days, even though they are organized to do so. You know the city guards are incapable of protecting the city in such a raid. For you to help your guild repulse the enemy guild you'd need to stay at your computer waiting, waiting, and waiting.... For a casual player like me this won't work out well, I play games only at night since I have better things to do during the day. I could choose to leave my character in auto attack mode and accept the risks and rewards that could fallow. If I can only disappear, then I can log into a ruined city and an angry guild to boot, but if I choose to disappear I wouldn’t have risked and/or gained rewards. ("I" is derogatory for the player with the character.)

This post has been edited by Honis: Jan 11 2007, 12:01 AM


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ni1s
post Jan 11 2007, 12:42 PM
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Oooo, this is a hard nut to crack.

In my book post-logout playing is a nice RP feature. I've been fiddling with the idea of sleeping after logout, maybe have the character take on some generic AI behavior and wander the streets looking at stuff randomly. If your character stays in world after you logout you would be forced to take care of the character, rent a room, light a fire to scare of the animals before you sleep under the bare sky etc. etc.. If you don't, well then you gamble, you either make it or you don't.
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Maxwell
post Jan 13 2007, 09:22 AM
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I this idea a lot. It makes the world less empty and can keep the world running. Why not allow shops open and tavern open while the players log out. It makes more sense and the "AI" can change everytime because a player can change it.


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Dwilf
post Jan 13 2007, 12:35 PM
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I'm still not sure about this. Having a PC that you spend a lot of time grouped with and RPing with just standing about under control of an AI script would kill the feel of that character a bit for me.

I think doing more with NPCs could be the better option. Allow PCs with influence in a town recriut NPCs to the Guards, have some control of a guard training programme and allow the towns crafters to equip the guards. This would be part of the social/diplomacy aspect of the game, mayors and other PCs with some sort of office or position of responisbility using their skills to benefit their community.
Let crafters/merchants hire NPCs to act as vendors to sell goods and also pay people for delivery of any orders the PC has.


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Jerky
post Jan 13 2007, 06:39 PM
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I would have to say I am with Dwilf on this one. I think I have commented on this sort of idea before, possibly on another forum. To me, this is a patch for a larger hole, which could be taken care of by actually fixing the root of the problem.

I don't think I would want to play a game that levels me or does anything while I am not there. That doesn't seem to promote immersion at all, and only worsens the fact that its a game that you are playing just to be better than the next guy. The focus is on skills, or levels, or how much money, or whatever. This would mean that is what is important in that game. Thats what you would need to do in order to contribute, compete, stay afloat, be better than the Jones.

What about the experience of playing the game? Wouldn't it be great to feel satiated just to log in and play, no matter what your standing was? Wouldn't it be great to actually log in and play with your friends, no matter what level they were, or what yours was? Wouldn't it be great to start out on a quest that would make you famous all over the world and you didn't have to be level 60 to do it?

These questions need answers, and I do not have all of them yet. I know Wish did some of this. I know we can do that and more, we just need to stop coming at ideas from angles where other games are. I hate the use the catch phrase, but lets "think outside the box" a little.

Keep the ideas coming. Someone give me a better reason to allow offline play, cause to me that doesnt mix well with a dynamic world. Instead of them logging in and turning on the macros, so they are run client side, now they are running from the server. Either way, a macro is a macro, imo. All you guys are doing is giving it another name, AI.


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joshpurple
post Jan 13 2007, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE(Jerky @ Jan 13 2007, 12:39 PM) *
"think outside the box" a little.

Keep the ideas coming. Someone give me a better reason to allow offline play,


Cool. smile.gif

Make it.. like gambling? smile.gif So when a player logs out, they get a choice. They can 'play it safe,' and place no bets, log off & exit game world. They can, 'call' and let a player friend use them like his or her own henchmen. They could 'gamble,' and let a pre-set type of AI control them (example; They would choose the AI, 'Nervous Nelly,' who always runs away and hides. Or the AI, 'Bold Brad,' who always tries to explore new areas. 'Goblin Dig Dug,' -always works on digging a tunnel, etc.). laugh.gif

Umm... Go with a fun exit. When you leave, your out, gone from play, but, give the player some choices on the style of exit smile.gif . The 'Fall up' exit, your character falls up into the air and disappears. The 'Valhalla' exit, your friends hack you to death, -but it's just a way for your avatar to fall to the ground and fade out using a death animation (it would not count as a real death). The 'Melt' exit, your character just melts into the ground. More ideas like that? And maybe match the exit with the entrance? So your character would enter by 'Falling' in, 'Rising from the dead,' 'Melt up,' etc. happy.gif laugh.gif

Create the 'Exit Realm.' When you log off, you are first taken to an Exit Realm, this would be a Chat like room for players, -where they could set-up/select some options while they are not in game; They'll be in Teamspeak, so "just yell, and log in," or "I'll have my MSN window open," "send me an email notification if Bob logs in," etc. ?

Just brain farting smile.gif


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echorev
post Jan 13 2007, 09:09 PM
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evolution ending where they revert back to primordial soup and then back again when they log in tongue.gif


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