Magic in Project Wish Options

[GageEndal]

This is my idea of how magic should work in the game, please throw in your own also so we can get an actual debate going on for this. There is a lot of thought to be put into magic since it can do so much in the game.



I feel that magic should be split up into three methods of casting:

Mana
Reagents
Mana and Reagents

Mana is for straight sorcerers who have just such a high ammount of mystical energies that they don't rely on reagents to cast a spell. The cost of this would be about 2x mana cost as it would be if you were casting with Mana / Reagents.

Reagents are a form of casting that would be slower than straight mana casting because it takes longer to get together. Any time someone uses reagents it would slow them down (even at a higher level, there may be a bit of a modification to this, but for now let's just say they stay static fo time). The time frame would be also about 1.5x time as it would be with just mana. Anyone can use this style (even stupid warriors)

Mana and Reagents would be used for general spell casters. Ones who are able to use mana, but not well enough that they can cast spells without the reagents. The Reagents shouldn't be things that are impossible to find either, there should be at least one magic shop in each town that will sell all of the reagents. I also don't think that we should have hundreds of types of reagents since that just makes casting spells difficult. Anyhow... heh. This is the best method for those who are still learning and I think it would work fine. The time is still the 1.5x that just using Reagents is, but you can skip a certain amount of reagents if needed. Perhaps even having the reagents be liquids and you can use less of them if you are casting with mana to back it (putting your own energies into the spell as well as the reagents).



Well, that's my idea, it's a bit mixed up but I just wrote it out as I thought it, so that's to be expected.

[Jerky]

http://forums.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=6296
http://forums.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=6308

[joshpurple]

Jerky is very good at that . (and Thanks for the links Jerky, that helps me too! ).

I didn't think it was mixed up at all , but, then again, I AM mixed up (See! I cancel out mixed up things, *dances* )

[GageEndal]

Well yeah, Pandra came up with some great ideas for Reagents, but I'm not talking about what we need to make it happen, that's similar, but a totally different path. What my post is about is different ways to actually cast a spell.


I think that there should be ways to cast without even touching a reagent, it's something I thought of while I was watching Merlin the other day with the wife. The whole idea was that there are three stages of becoming a true wizard.

Incantation (or reagents in our case) which is the slowest and sloppiest.
Hand Gestures (reagents / mana) which is faster, but still sloppy.
Pure Thought (mana) being the fastest and most powerful.

Don't get me wrong, I had gotten the idea of my post from reading Pandra's post, I just think that hers is more interested in seeing what kind of reagents would be needed and what kind of spells we should be casting. I personally hate reagents, which is my true reason for posting something like this that would make it so we can just not use them (eg).

[GageEndal]

<jerky> One of the huge reasons for reagents it he economy, so if you can account for that somewhere, you may be onto something.


The thing to remember about the reagents is that they aren't the idea of the merchants who sell them. They are the discovery of the mages who have learned through trial and error which reagents will cause which effect. Because of this, the merchants are only putting these items out for suply and demand.

Now naturaly, magic is a realm of unknown discovery. And what is to say that a mage would not be able to get past the boundries of reagents and learn to cast a spell without them. I know that the economy of the land is important, but you also have to remember that they have young mages, rangers, rogues, thieves, warriors, knights, paladins and many others who will be buying these reagents because they just don't have the power to cast a spell without them. Some may be able to tap into their mana and use less of them, but on the whole anyone who wishes to cast a spell will be using reagents at one point in their life.

These mages who are above it are also paying a large price of the extra mana. Most will not use this because of this mana price and will stick to the reagent / mana style. But what happens when you are fighting that gryphon and you run out of mandrake roots? Do you run for your short life or do you summon the power to finish your spell without the stuff?

[Pandra]

That's acctually similar to something I tried to propose in the IRC chat... but it wasn't so well received. Regeants or items that had to be expended or sacrificed to cast spells as an inexprienced magi. Then as you got more skilled you could craft a foci (mgial focus) to cast with that would take the place of reagents. As you got more skilled you could craft more powerful and complex foci to replace rarer and harder to obtain reagents. I guess I should note that the cast him or herself would have to make thier own foci, they couldn't have another mage make one for them.

I personally don't want to be carrying around alot of reagents forever either. I mean in WoW mages need to keep what, light feathers, portal stones, teleport stones and like one other reagent on them. I'm that mage who frequently doesn't have those four items 'cause it's annoying as crap to me and it takes up bag room. If I'm such a skilled mage why can't I weave flows of pure magic and shape it into what I need. I mean I've probably done most of the these spells a thousand times by now, shouldn't I know them well enough to not that dinky feather?

Oh... that reminds me. Give me a bit to find a book and I'll post a passage from it

[Jerky]

So, reagents would act as training wheels? I am not opposed to the idea at all.

All I want here, is to ensure there is a way to make sure higher level (read: non-reagent using) sorcerers/mages have to buy and sell like everyone else. If it turns into something where once they get to that level, they are then exempt from dumping their money back into the economy, then its harder to get a balanced economy.

We may be able to assume, however, if they get to that "level," then they are high enough in skill, and experienced enough that they may be able to afford a house. We could then use the housing/towns/technology upgrades system to be the money sink for them.

[GageEndal]

Buying houses will be a great way for them to expand their game economy styles. And the people who are doing this will have to be a certain level until they can even attempt it, and even if they do get it earlier on, that's why there is the mana penelty. They aren't using the reagents, but they ARE using their mana. Mages who are using this solely as a way of casting would have to have a HUGE Mana reserve to keep up. Most will still use reagents just because it will allow them to cast for a longer period of time, even if they are casting a bit slower (unless we introduce mana potions).

[Jaramar]

I've several objections to this idea myself.

-This will (eventually) make spell components worthless as more of the playerbase is at higher levels... there should ALWAYS be that chance to consume a component even on a low level spell (but not so high that you will probably need to carry more then a couple to be safe).
-It gives an easy out for mages when they should be a HARD class to play, indeed it seems to be nearing mainstream with some of the suggestions here. Especially with the pure mana or mana and a couple components idea!
-Finally our magic system shouldn't be dumbed down just because you are at a higher level.

Being a mage should be a bit of a pain in the ass. For those that have played PnP RPGs or Asheron's Call 1 when it first came out understand what I mean. It was a hard but rewarding experiance. You could massacre a warrior easily enough, but only if you were on top of things and the conditions were right, otherwise he'd gut you in an instant. We do not want another game where it's just "press a button and cast the spell".

[Matlush]

Two ideas:

1) Make using regents optional, but if you use them, you have a skill gain (rather bad solution)

2) Instead of carring a lot of stuff, charge it back at town. It would be like dividing mana into basic elementals/schools of magic (i think i posted something about that on another theard about magic)

[Timmmy]

What if the type of magic you were using decided your reagents.Your run of the mill casting could simply use your mana but large spells or boosted spells could also absorb reagents.So a mage has their spell book with them,realises that their party is going to be fighting something above their abilities and places some darkweed in with the spell.

Then when they cast,their mana and reagent is consumed.Different reagents grant different properties(fire dmg,ice dmg etc)at different rates(+1,+10 etc) and mages must chose the correct ones.Reagents become ability based in that some reagents are simply too dangerous for lower mages to triffle with and thus they cant use them.Thus players dont have to rely on purchasing reagents but in doing so allows the mages access to more powerful magics.

Also instead of a mage becoming a gardener,when they collect reagents they are placed in their bag.Then the most appropriate is auto assigned to their spell books boost for each spell.Player can if they wan chose different reagents.Maybe using reagents more often in spell casting would allow more reagents to be used per casting thus improving that spell casting way.Alternatively using mana alone increases that skill of spellcasting.

[KingNothing]

I think the coolest spells should need reagents, so they wont get spammed!
How about that you die if your mana is emptied? (mana is brain power no?)

[GageEndal]

You could also work something along the lines of this. Since we are going to have skill levels and spell levels (I think) then we could set it up so you would need to be two spell levels over the one you are trying to cast without reagents. that way the lower level spells would be very easy to do and the higher level ones would still require reagents.

[Hankellin]

I do not think reagents should be removed from a spell ever....

The magic is tied to the componets used.

If a spell requires something at a lower level the it should still require itr at a higher mage skill.

The potentency mage be higher with the more skillful a mage. The spell itself should still have the reagent requirement.


For example say we have a spell "Bloodpact"

Benefit of the spell is that any damage taken is shared between the members of the pact.

Reagents needed: Dagger; Parchment; bloodstone; candle.

Reagents consumed in the casting: Parchment and the bloodstone and candle.

Casting: Each member of the pact would be required to have the dagger, parchment and bloodstone in turn. After a small self inflicted woud the blood is then placed on the parchment and after the final member is done, the items are then passed back to the mage. The mage would then burn the parchment, with the bloodstone wrapped in it, useing the candle.

Benefits could last for an hour or two.


Last longer for a more skilled mage shorter for the less skilled.

[Maxwell]

I think their is one thing everyone is forgetting someone else who would use reagents. An Alchemist. They could make potions that would cast spells, dyes for armor for better protection, and their are probally more I can't think of. Reagents will always be needed. Maybe we should make alchemy something that fits perfectly in with mages. I am unsure how at the moment, but if I get any Ideas I will let you know or if you have any ideas post them.

[Honis]

I think forcing mages (strict mages, not the melee and magic type mages) to use reagents is like forcing a warrior to use an item every time he swings his sword!

Magic is a mages only real weapon in games. They should pay for each weapon just as a warrior has to pay for each of his. As the mage progresses, certain spells should reach a limit to how high they can be skilled because a master of something can't learn anything more about it. This forces mages to learn new spells (buy a new spell book/scroll/whatever) just as a warrior is expected to buy new weapons and armor to match his increasing skill.

One way of handling mana use by pure mages is to have the mana used to cast, based on there skill of the spell. If your a master of spark, then you should be able to cast it with minimal mana waste compared to someone who just learned the spell.

For the semi mage types, mana and/or reagents would be nice to see. As suggested before, the use of reagents would reduce the need for a large mana pool. I also think these spells should use mana and reagents based on skill. Someone who masters Heal Wounds won't waste as much reagent as he gives cites (in mouth, mind, or motion) the incantation.

For the people who are not a part of any magical skill. I think they make a choice not to use magic so why let them? Reagents should be defined as an item that assists the use of mana. That said, I think some spells should have some potion that has the same effect (an alchemist for example). The potion can be used on or thrown at anyone (obvious pvp restricting applies). This will allow non-mage types to go and do some things that mages can. The best example I can think of is being used in Final Fantasy XI. The white mage gets the spell Sneak. The target of the spell makes no noise for some calculated period. If your not a white mage, you buy Silent Potions from Alchemists (a crafting guild in FFXI, not a job class). You get the same silent effects as the spell, but it costs money. Financially the white mage has the advantage in exploring hazardous areas, but for spells like this, the cost of finding/buying the spell is hazardous/expensive.

[Hankellin]

I think forcing mages (strict mages, not the melee and magic type mages) to use reagents is like forcing a warrior to use an item every time he swings his sword!

~snip~

I agree in most part, I was trying to say that if a spell requires a reagent when first learned then it should still require the reagent when mastered.

The spell,when mastered,would not require much mana from the Master Mage as it would from a novice, but it would still require the reagent.

I believe that somewhere in this thread it was suggested that eventually a mage would not need the reagent to cast the spell and this is where I disagree.

[Maxwell]

Why not seperate Magic classes one with reagents and one without.

[Jaramar]

Why not seperate Magic classes one with reagents and one without.

Firstly there are no classes. Secondly the advantage would be too large either in one direction or the other be be worth it.

It is _IMPORTANT_ to note the spell components are _NOT_ always consumed upon casting. Spell component loss is the exception rather then the norm. If you are trying spells a bit above your capability then, yes, you will lose spell components faster, but an old magic user should only lose a component every 25-100 casts of a low level spell... but go up to 1-5 lost per spell and a HIGH failure chance if he's trying to cast something he's not ready for. Most likely it would average out to losing 1 or 2 components every 5-10 casts of a spell at your level.

[Jerky]

Careful not to jump too early on that word Jaramar, I dont think he meant our hated kind. There are legitimate uses of the word 'classes.'