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Posted by: Matlush Sep 30 2006, 10:09 AM

How do you see it ? When does character log out, is he leaving the world or sleeping ? Also, there's something about stamina.

I've got these visions of going offline:

- Character logs off, and he disappears. Nothing is done to him.
+Logging off is easy thing to do.
+/- You're safe from monsters and other players.

- Character logs off, and he falls down as he is asleep in the world. Yet he can use beds instead of falling to the ground
+Realistic feature, and with it you could see which towns are good organized, and which not.
+Sleeping in bed would make your "long run*" stamina regain
+/- You're vurneable for monster/player attacks.
- Possibly too much people in world and near start area that are sleeping. Could cause lag.
- Could lead to frustating situation when you've got to get a safe place, and yet you need to log off as quick as possible.

- Character logs off, and he leaves the world. Yet he can use a bed to get a stamina regain boost. Guys in beds can be killed by players (or animals if they get to you)
+ Non frustating way.
+/- You can still choose between safety and buff gain.


* stamina that affects your short run stamina, which is used to do normal tasks.

Two last visions of logging off would allow scripting

Scripts would be only useable to protect yourself from getting killed when a raid on a town is done (and horns are sounded). You could only do move commands, attack commands, lock/unlock commands, equip command (which could allow only equip stuff that acts like armour or weapon)

So, when villagers are in sleep, and a raid is on, horn is sounded. It wakes up villagers, which can do thing related with their scripts. So, villagers could do such things:

- Some villagers gets up, equip their armors, and go fight with the raiders.
- Others lock themselfs in a safe area, which could be for example castle.
- And others run away to other city, or a hideout.

There could be a script maker, that would allow you to make a good moving and equipping script, but others could work like that:

If all villager pass the main gate from west, or enemy is 10m near main gate, then lock main gate.
If main gate locked, then equip short bow, equip leather armour, equip quiver, equip 100 arrows, and then move by getup(moving curve of some sort, that is saved on client), and then move to arrowpos4, and then attack enemy nearest.

Suggestion here: If one thing is not done, then just bypass it, so if there's no bow, then do other things, unless there's something like:

If equip short bow false, then equip crossbow. If equip crossbow false, then move by runaway.

If character is getting killed, scripts stop working, so there wont be any short bow equiping in outworld.

Fell free to comment it... or rather "please comment it" XD.

Posted by: joshpurple Sep 30 2006, 11:10 AM

Cool Matlush, those are all good ideas to think about. I'm completely open to lots of different ideas on this.

One idea I've pondered is;

Character logs off >
The Player gets a pop-up list of options for when they are about to log off to select from >
one of the choices would be a selection of NPC AI scripts to run >
(like 'AI Sleep,' 'AI guard,' 'AI hide,' etc.) >
Character logs off >
Character logs back in >
Your character has been assigned an NPC AI >
Pop-up menu for choices >
Accept AI script, or reject AI script. >
If you accept, then your off line log will be put into your character's history >
Reject it, you resume play where you left off, your NPC toon continues as an NPC >
But, at that time, your NPC toon would lose all items, would not advance in skills, etc.

One reason for this would be, as you log back in, in your pop-up menu,
you would see, -before you accept or reject the AI script, if your
character had been killed or not. That way players have the option to
not log back in to a dead character.

But, then there's the cheating... always with the cheating

Posted by: Dwilf Sep 30 2006, 11:17 AM

Players being killable while the player is not in controll of the character is not a good idea. While realsitic I just can't see it being a good idea.
Scripitng or macros are also a bad idea, a character should have very few things automated. The player must play the character at all times. I don't even like auto-attack.

I'm all for players who log of in an inn room, a tent, thier home, etc to get some slow healing and item repairs (upto 8 game hours worth maybe). Players who just log out willy-nilly should log back in in exactly the same state as they left.

Posted by: joshpurple Sep 30 2006, 11:47 AM

Yup! Dwilf makes an EXCELLENT point.

Posted by: Matlush Sep 30 2006, 01:43 PM

Hm.... Well, yeah, macroing is a bad thing. But this isn't about it. If I'd have to chose between guard NPCs or players that can use their scripts to do some kind of automated defense, i'd chose the second one. Why ? Because it replaces a NPC filled gap. Yeah, I'm a NPC hater.

If players would stay in world, they would need (want maybe? ) self defense automation. And running is also a self defence. Sleeping in wilderness and waking up hearing some roaring, and then automating to kill the beast if it attacks me, well... Got to do that.

I've tought of it with such an imagination: While on raid, all the villagers ale asleep (and in world, too). Next day, they wake up dead. Easiest thing to solve it is to make players leave the world. And why i dislike when people leave the world ? Makes space so empty, and removes some kind of feature to roleplay... Tell me, what is happening to a person which is logging of ? Is he/she somehow transfered to the outworld and then back to realworld ? The biggest, baddest for me problem is that players place great importance to their characters. And it's not about that. It's about having fun from what you do, no matter what is it. Okay, but now it's offtopic :/ XD

So, overally: Leaving players in the world after they log out makes roleplaying feature, fun or not for some people. Automated self defence is something I'd say needed for guys who stay in the world. I'll put an example how would it look for a traveler. Yet still some may like it, some no. Atleast I'm not putting only the good examples here (but the bad ones still can be fun)

Humsahro is getting tired, but IRL he has to go somewhare. So, he wields a spear in his hands, also, some kind of leather armour, sets a campfire to disperse any animals coming. Now, he's laying his head on log covered with animal fur. Humsahro's player logs off, setting AI in log out menu to stand up and guard himself when he'll hear (and wake himself) any noises 10 meters near him.
Time passes, and a thief is sneaking near the Humsahro. He searches his inventory, but his breath wakes up Humsahro. Humsahro, as in AI, get's up and looks on the thief, saying nothing. Being noticed, thief walks away, and about 20 minutes later, Humsahro falls asleep. The thief is getting near him again, but this time, Humsahro wakes up seeing thief looking in his inventory. Now, his AI (i know i didn't mention it at the begining ) stands up in the combat mode, aiming his spear at thief. Thief runs away again. Humsahro puts his backpack under his torso, and falls asleep again.
Thief again comes back, and kills the Humsahro piercing him with his knife. Humsahro didn't wake up, as he failed all his rolls to wake up from faint sounds. The thief takes his gold, and gets back to his hideout. He's getting a unhonorable murder karma point, as he killed a player while sleeping.
Humsahro's player gets back from (for example) work. As he logs on his game, he finds out his character in out world. He looks at the log from when he was not controlling him, and finds out that the murdered was a trader at some known company, as he recognizes his face. Being anyway frustaded with death of his character, Humsahro bought himself a tent, and entaglement spell to make sure he wont be killed again. Anyway, he now rents beds in inns also.

Posted by: njpaul Sep 30 2006, 02:37 PM

I've imagined logging off where the character would disappear, probably with a cool magical effect to make it look good to players still in the game. When the player logs back on, s/he starts at the nearest "portal" where we allow spawning, possibly the same place where we could allow a magical transport system.

Posted by: Bingo Oct 10 2006, 08:44 AM

Only problem with allowing people not to die when they are not in control leads to people logging off to avoid dying in a battle. One might argue that the beasts will still be there when they log back on, but there are just as many chances they won't be (an adventuring party... when you're about to die, log off, let your mates tell you on Teamspeak when it's safe).

If you log off in the "wild", there should be a 10-20 second period in which your character remains vulnerable. This would stop people logging off to avoid death.


Macros should be allowed to automate mundane tasks and stop everyone getting carpal tunnel syndrome unnecessarily. However, "number of actions a player can perform in x seconds" will still keep everone, macros or not, on the same footing.

Posted by: ppClarity Oct 10 2006, 09:59 AM

Designing a code solution for "logging to avoid death" gets really touchy. Before you put pen to paper you have to consider two things first:

- What are the consequences of character death? Any chance of perma-death? How much of an inconvenience is it for the player?

- Server Lag. Network Lag. Server Bugs. Client Bugs. Driver Bugs. How many networks are between the server and the client?

In my Avlis (NWN) experience, bugs and network events are far more prevalent than cheaters. If you must, chalk that up to a more mature playerbase than your average MMO and a far more hostile (buggy) PW platform (NWN). You still need to think very carefully about balancing "logging" prevention, death penalties and death due to lag or external event.

I'm not advising against any such code, just pointing out the additional factors that may affect the design.

Logging should record if the disconnect was intentional or due to a timeout. An alternative to code prevention could be writing a trend analysis process that looks for potential exploits like this and flag them for human investigation.

Posted by: Bingo Oct 10 2006, 12:19 PM

Whilst I agree that death to to lag is unfortunate, we can make a few assumptions:

1) We know the players lag, this could potentially be a factor in a "final" decision on the "death by lag" argument.
2) Logging off "cleanly" is user-action, by either clicking a "Exit" button or merely closing the application.

I'm sure testing will tell.

Posted by: Matlush Oct 10 2006, 01:08 PM

Hum... Anyway, i think as macroing is bad, then sending characters to sleep instead of making them leave the world would add some RPness. But the fact is, it's MMOcRPG that is made, not a MMOPnPRPG with 3d grasphics

Posted by: ppClarity Oct 10 2006, 01:09 PM

Ahhh, the joys of having the source to your engine

Posted by: Timmmy Oct 10 2006, 07:39 PM

What about a few log off ideas involving a few of the above,well sort of.

You decide you have to go.If you're in a rush you simply hit recall and exit,wait the 5 seconds anti flee time and then are gone out of the world.In game you are recalled to your tp spot with the nice spell effects(thanks njpau ) and here you stay,with a basic NPC script.For many guilds this would be a guild hall or simply upon the walls of the guild town.Others may tp to a workshop or somewere they have chosen before as a nice load in spot.

Your basic script would be to chose between agressive,defensive and rest.
Agressive: You will attack any enemies within a set radius.
Defensive: You will only attack if you are.
Rest:When you log in again all bars will be refilled(if logged out for 6 hours +)

The alternative is to mark your current position as recall,ride to were you want to log off and then hit just exit.With this you will simply leave game world in default mode with your char staying in game but when you re enter you can recall to previous location.

The final option is a pricey one.By resting in a tavern you are charged a continuos fee but you will also slowly get better at random things.So you could log off and come back ever so slightly stronger from bar brawls or find that you now know how to knit,badly.This would at least clear some inactive players off the server while also acting as a money drain and adding a little humour to the game,well maybe.

Posted by: Zerotacg Dec 23 2006, 04:57 PM

Why to have the player being AI controlled while offline?
If your offline your unaviable.
If normal NPCs do stuff Players would you don't need the Players to be AI controlled.

As a player you know it's a game.
You know other players won't be arround all the time.
If someone is offline and would be AI controlled the character would be notheing else then a NPC, and is seen as that by other players.
The Name doesn't really matter. You could have NPCs appear randomly though like players appear cause the start playing the game etc.

Posted by: Honis Jan 10 2007, 11:59 PM

I think an AI system for logging can work if the option to have the AI is available and the option to disappear is available.

(assuming pvp)
I would like to see the AI system because rumors can get spread that an enemy guild is going to raid your guilds city, but at what time is unknown. They could choose not to attack for days, even though they are organized to do so. You know the city guards are incapable of protecting the city in such a raid. For you to help your guild repulse the enemy guild you'd need to stay at your computer waiting, waiting, and waiting.... For a casual player like me this won't work out well, I play games only at night since I have better things to do during the day. I could choose to leave my character in auto attack mode and accept the risks and rewards that could fallow. If I can only disappear, then I can log into a ruined city and an angry guild to boot, but if I choose to disappear I wouldn’t have risked and/or gained rewards. ("I" is derogatory for the player with the character.)

Posted by: ni1s Jan 11 2007, 12:42 PM

Oooo, this is a hard nut to crack.

In my book post-logout playing is a nice RP feature. I've been fiddling with the idea of sleeping after logout, maybe have the character take on some generic AI behavior and wander the streets looking at stuff randomly. If your character stays in world after you logout you would be forced to take care of the character, rent a room, light a fire to scare of the animals before you sleep under the bare sky etc. etc.. If you don't, well then you gamble, you either make it or you don't.

Posted by: Maxwell Jan 13 2007, 09:22 AM

I this idea a lot. It makes the world less empty and can keep the world running. Why not allow shops open and tavern open while the players log out. It makes more sense and the "AI" can change everytime because a player can change it.

Posted by: Dwilf Jan 13 2007, 12:35 PM

I'm still not sure about this. Having a PC that you spend a lot of time grouped with and RPing with just standing about under control of an AI script would kill the feel of that character a bit for me.

I think doing more with NPCs could be the better option. Allow PCs with influence in a town recriut NPCs to the Guards, have some control of a guard training programme and allow the towns crafters to equip the guards. This would be part of the social/diplomacy aspect of the game, mayors and other PCs with some sort of office or position of responisbility using their skills to benefit their community.
Let crafters/merchants hire NPCs to act as vendors to sell goods and also pay people for delivery of any orders the PC has.

Posted by: Jerky Jan 13 2007, 06:39 PM

I would have to say I am with Dwilf on this one. I think I have commented on this sort of idea before, possibly on another forum. To me, this is a patch for a larger hole, which could be taken care of by actually fixing the root of the problem.

I don't think I would want to play a game that levels me or does anything while I am not there. That doesn't seem to promote immersion at all, and only worsens the fact that its a game that you are playing just to be better than the next guy. The focus is on skills, or levels, or how much money, or whatever. This would mean that is what is important in that game. Thats what you would need to do in order to contribute, compete, stay afloat, be better than the Jones.

What about the experience of playing the game? Wouldn't it be great to feel satiated just to log in and play, no matter what your standing was? Wouldn't it be great to actually log in and play with your friends, no matter what level they were, or what yours was? Wouldn't it be great to start out on a quest that would make you famous all over the world and you didn't have to be level 60 to do it?

These questions need answers, and I do not have all of them yet. I know Wish did some of this. I know we can do that and more, we just need to stop coming at ideas from angles where other games are. I hate the use the catch phrase, but lets "think outside the box" a little.

Keep the ideas coming. Someone give me a better reason to allow offline play, cause to me that doesnt mix well with a dynamic world. Instead of them logging in and turning on the macros, so they are run client side, now they are running from the server. Either way, a macro is a macro, imo. All you guys are doing is giving it another name, AI.

Posted by: joshpurple Jan 13 2007, 08:28 PM

Cool.

Make it.. like gambling? So when a player logs out, they get a choice. They can 'play it safe,' and place no bets, log off & exit game world. They can, 'call' and let a player friend use them like his or her own henchmen. They could 'gamble,' and let a pre-set type of AI control them (example; They would choose the AI, 'Nervous Nelly,' who always runs away and hides. Or the AI, 'Bold Brad,' who always tries to explore new areas. 'Goblin Dig Dug,' -always works on digging a tunnel, etc.).

Umm... Go with a fun exit. When you leave, your out, gone from play, but, give the player some choices on the style of exit . The 'Fall up' exit, your character falls up into the air and disappears. The 'Valhalla' exit, your friends hack you to death, -but it's just a way for your avatar to fall to the ground and fade out using a death animation (it would not count as a real death). The 'Melt' exit, your character just melts into the ground. More ideas like that? And maybe match the exit with the entrance? So your character would enter by 'Falling' in, 'Rising from the dead,' 'Melt up,' etc.

Create the 'Exit Realm.' When you log off, you are first taken to an Exit Realm, this would be a Chat like room for players, -where they could set-up/select some options while they are not in game; They'll be in Teamspeak, so "just yell, and log in," or "I'll have my MSN window open," "send me an email notification if Bob logs in," etc. ?

Just brain farting

Posted by: echorev Jan 13 2007, 09:09 PM

evolution ending where they revert back to primordial soup and then back again when they log in

Posted by: ni1s Jan 16 2007, 06:50 PM

If I cast a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment spell over your Soup, would I be able to turn you back to normal while you're logged out still?


Agreed. But having your character disappear in a cloud of smoke( or your favorite exit effect ) removes a bit of the feeling that you are in another world, a role playing world. And I think that's worse than your character being out of character.

Posted by: Xoshua Jan 28 2007, 11:10 PM

I'm new at giving ideas for PW but I'll try.

This may be a dumb thought but I understand, as a Player Character, we do not want to advance in skills while away. But what if they "logged out" and the persons character would work on a skill... For example, if he/ she had strength as a main skill, they would do physical training, pushups?. Or if they studied magic, they could study up on their current spells? If an archer, practice shooting or techniques, or so on. I don't think its fair for someone to go away and end up dead, or gained skills, or lose skills, or so on. But that's the whole point of logging off... So the person can keep the same skills the same LV... Any ideas on that?

Posted by: joshpurple Jan 29 2007, 12:18 AM

( I think you are excellent at giving ideas for PW Josh! -And Thank You for doing so! )

Posted by: Minthos Jan 29 2007, 08:57 AM

Oh gosh, now we have two Joshes? :/

Posted by: Tecknowolf Feb 10 2007, 01:43 PM

Ok you want a better reason. I have been working on this for over a year. Not saying my idea is best but you asked for idea's.

Why does the average person play stand alone games like Dungeon Siege or NWN? Adventure, and to get away from the grind of life. So what do they do in games like EQ, WoW, and Vanguard, they grind from level 1 to what ever the dev's set as the limit, grinding for both exp. and gear/items on the way. So basicly the game becomes more focused and developed around grinding the exp. and items as well. Then why do game devs create this format? Easy, and we all know the word. Treadmill. You and your friends are playing a MMO, lets say your friends gain a few levels on you. You need to catch up to them to join them in dungeons that are higher level. So you also need new gear, which makes you play more just to catch up to your friends, who are also leveling to get to new area's and get new gear. All the while you are paying the company a monthly fee which makes them very happy. The longer they keep you playing the more money they get. (end of back story)

So why allow offline game play. You want to make a game that sets itself apart. Focus more on the game play and let the players spend time playing and enjoying the Characters they want instead of all that time creating and training and equiping them. Look at how Eve Online allows you to train while off line. Players love that feature, and it can work very well for MMO's of this nature also.


You as a game dev have scripts for NPC's. So you can set waypoints for guards to patrol, behavior settings for how one npc acts towards another(factions), and so on. Well, have a clean and easy interface with these options so a player can have multiple routines and actions set. I would think that for player safety that they should generally only use these in a town or safe area to avoid being killed. How would these work?

So my character focuses mostly on blacksmithing, and I have a nice little shop set up to sell stuff from. I have a list of routines and actions in a pull down menu that I made previously and a short description so I can recognize what it does. I am about to log off so I can go out and see a movie. I set my character to NPC mode in my shop, have it stand at the front so people can still come in and buy stuff or sell their junk for me to melt or even to fix or sharpen armor and weapons. If the game has other vendors/players who mine and smelt ore to a metal I can use. Set that vendor as a waypoint so if while I am gone my character needs more material he can go and retrieve it as needed. Or if he needs leather wrapping for a hilt or some fine wood for a axe handle.

If your character is a combat orientated character you can have him set to protect a town you are bound to. Or you might have him be used as a NPC guard and hire him out to escort merchants selling items between towns. (making a Player NPC guard not lose exp but be able to be paid for services to offset wear and tear on equipment?)

As to training and skills, in another post people discussed what would prevent people from just macro'ing like in UO to become a GM(Grand Master). You set a fatigue meter so you can only train so much in NPC mode. So if you are offline say 9 hours while at work, you can train for 15 minutes every 2 hours. Combat skills can be either sharpened through practice like a martial arts 'Kata', a training dummy, or a local Man-At-Arms with the required skill you want. Merchants would learn through a Master of their profession at a local craft guild hall or shop and so on.

How would this affect immersion and gameplay? Well your character would always be in game. Instead of playing to keep up skills or abilities you could do that offline and just enjoy your character while you are online. You are right, macro's are not always good, but they aren't always bad either. As you said that doesn't mix well with a dynamic world, but does players popping in and out make it dynamic? If I can just log out anywhere and log in anywhere then I am a nomad. If I can call a place home, say a specific town then I can feel an attatchment to that area, a sense of community as it were.

Posted by: Maxwell Feb 12 2007, 12:56 PM

Very Nicely put Tecknowolf, I have to say that the this kind of play seems to allow more of a sense of home, or loyalty. Some people may see this as marcoing or cheating, but with this you can actually play your character when you log on. You can go hunt, enjoy quests, or just hang out at the local tavern and get into a bar fight, instead of trying to reach the next best skill.

This is just how I see things and I am trying to emphasize Tecknowolf's post.

Posted by: Jerky Feb 20 2007, 01:43 AM

To me, these are workarounds for the real problem. Effort x Time-played in the game = power in the game. If we can change that equation, there is no need for your solutions. This is my way of saying that I still am not a fan of offline play. There are definite advantages for the server if players leave the game world. Yes, technically, this does not make the world truly immersive, but that is not the overall goal. Immersiveness is a goal, but not the holy grail.

Many players do not care about it at all. Look at how popular other commercial MMO's are. They all have this equation that I mentioned above. In order to get by, and feel like the game is worth your money, you need to feel like you are progressing to a goal. At least thats how current MMO's get you sucked in. It is not about immersion, it is about gratification. I have said it many times on other MMO-related boards, and I will say it again. Gratifying players' every desire is a very dangerous thing to be playing with. Ethically and realistically. I call it "obese child syndrome." Parents nowadays are facing a self-inflicted epidemic with childhood obesity as they continue to feed their children more, and allow them to indulge in things that are not healthy for them in portion sizes that are much more than they need. To me, game design is approaching the same paradigm.

As technology is providing better ways of creating believable, immersive virtual worlds, gameplay is becoming the focus. Graphics really only take you so far, but it is what the players do in the world that make or break a game. Making gameplay elements intended to addict a player is a dangerous thing to play with. Giving them everything they ask for is the same thing. Yes, yes ... you have to give players some things they ask for, but like the fat children, when is enough enough? As a game designer (or for us, as those who discuss possible game design decisions) when do we have to say not every idea is going to cut it. There has to be concessions, and, lets face it, we do not have the same capacities as a commercial project.

Now, back to the topic at hand, immersiveness and offline play...
To me, any offline play only encourages people to play the game just for the wrong reasons. The need to get ahead and compete drives people to figure out ways to exploit the game. Allowing them gain anything without actually doing anything is pretty much admitting that the things done in game arent worth a damn. If skills can be gained from a script, doesnt that mean they are really worthless. What good is a game that is based on skills, worthless skills? Not very much at all.

Now, this next part is just me shooting from the hip to try and throw out an idea to spark some discussion on this issue. What if any person in the game had a chance at killing one of the toughest monsters (as an example)? What if a brand new character had a chance at doing something that, in another game, should take a level 60? The playing field would be even and there would no longer be a need to offline train anything. There would not be any elite people running around, or so it seems. The next question would be, what is the incentive to play a game if anyone else coming in could do what you can, 30 days into it? Well, there are many possible solutions to that one. I would love to hear some of yours, but one possibility would be percentages.

If the game was skill-based, as we plan it to be, then what good would gaining skill do? It could increase the chance to actually do a specific task. Chance to hit, chance to critical, chance to do massive damage, chance to knock down, chance to successfully cast, chance to pick pocket, chance to tame, chance to catch, chance to create, chance to craft, chance to discover, chance to understand, chance to .... you get the idea. If your skills increased your chance to be successful at what it is that you try to do, then there would be incentive to actually try and do something.

The gap between newbies and oldies would not "seem" so far, but upon further inspection, would still be there. That is not to say a newbie and an oldie could not group together. By all means, the world is a world. Anything should be possible, just not probable. In Wish, newbies could still help defend their village against tough foes. They still had a chance of causing damage and looting it. I know, cause I did it. As a relatively new player, I was able to participate in events that I would not have been able to in other games.

See, when you try to solve gameplay ideas from the perspective of other games, that we all know, there is no thinking outside the box. There are some tried and true things to stick to, of course, but there is a blank canvas for the rest of the world. Imagining you will play this game like you have played game X is not a fair comparison. What if this game is not anything like that one? Most likely, there will be similarities, but we want you to think this game is different. It will be, especially if I have anything to say about it. Which, thank goodness, I do .

Posted by: joshpurple Feb 22 2007, 03:32 AM

Great posts all, I'm very impressed with the depth/reflection on this (and two Josh's, *evil laugh here,* soon, soon we will take over the world! *trips, falls down stairs* ).

Jerky's post makes me think of Battlefield style combat/actions, -but I don't mean to fall back on a game and get locked in a box. Just that in BF players are all 'equal' in knife to knife fights, -although those players who have mastered the controls will do much better (side note, I think BF does a great job with helicopter flight).

That approach seems to put a great emphasis on weapons and vehicles (which can have a lot of merit to it). Most players I've talked with really enjoy the BF player action. Unreal Tournament does a similar approach, BUT gives the players TONS of 'pick-ups' to aid in player power (and I'd guess all of that could = FPS gaming).

Soooo... >Ack!< ... although many games already kind of do this, why not create two modes, 'FPS Play,' and 'RP Play.' 'FPS Play' would be a play mode that would call up a separate Scene Manager, -which would be set to put almost everything on a min./lowest level of system resource use (256 colors, no shadows, no physics/dynamics calculations<*that could change>, Short line of sight, only actions of ... 8 frames or less, etc.) When the FPS scene manager controls the action, the character would become a placeholder/reference object in the RP scene manager. True, there's a lot lost on an immersive level, BUT I am trying to think of how OGRE can/might handle this & how that would translate to game play (hope that makes sense).

Anyway, this creates some options for 'Leaving the World.' You could leave the world in 'FPS Play,' or in 'RP Play'(Note: I think it would still be a good idea that player death could occur in 'RP Play'). Leaving the world in RP Play, would pretty much = you are gone & you can not be killed. You're a place holder object (might be kind of cool to allow certain events to be 'Global,' that would affect ALL objects?). If you choose to leave the world in FPS Play, you are taking a big risk & could be killed. This gives the players a choice, but it would be my guess that most players would select leaving the world in 'RP Play.'

For any kind of Skill improvement, training, spell studies, etc. Players would need to be Active in RP Play. FPS Play would be, FPS play. Conditions for risk/possible death in RP Play could = logged out when traveling/moving, Global environmental damages (earthquakes, Floods, etc.), assassination attacks, falling, certain magical spells/artifacts, etc.

Well, it's just a brain fart.. maybe it will help trigger better ideas!

Posted by: RicoSuave Feb 22 2007, 04:54 PM

Very interesting, JP. To add to that, perhaps you wouldn't have to have FPS-mode be a FPS-screen. It could simply be a mode to switch TO & FROM... not just an adjustment to the viewscreen.

We could even have more than just two modes: FPS, RP, Macro'd (for logging-off or unattended play), NPC/AI-controlled, and so on.

If anyone follows webcomics, there is one called 'Order of the Stick' that made a good point for battle that Jerky alluded to in his last post... using the old AD&D rules of a 20-sided die, 1 out of 20 level one newbies will still hit a level 100 monster per round rolling a "natural 20"... not doing much, but connecting regardless. If anyone has even been bit by Fire Ants, they know that there is strength in numbers. And I'm sure that Jerky was one of the many newbies that actually made a difference.

I would still like to keep that for PW. I'm not saying that I expect a new player to solo-kill an troll, unless that troll is a new player too, but at least help a group and make a difference.

As for offline-progression, instead of skills, what else could we do to make logging-off actually worthwhile? A few ideas I can think up as I type this are: gaining resources (flour, minerals, herbs), gaining a rested-state (been done with WoW), gaining social-status (schmoozing the public). All three of these are based upon character improvement. Some might like this, others will not. We just read Jerky is one of those that do not...

So let's move out of the character development sense and try something else "outside-the-box." This outside-the-box thinking might work, or need to be revamped dramatically, but it's an idea. This world we are creating... we're planning on it being enormous. What if travel was an integral, key part to economic survival? You could tie it to trade, refugees, questing, etc. You could either be logged in and walk that distance while awake, or do it while you're at work/asleep/Family Night/etc... but it's going to take you 10 hours regardless; Live with it!

If one travels while logged in, there will obviously be a bonus. He/She could interact with others on the trade route, learning, trading, exploring, mining, networking, so on. This is something the logged-off player will never and could never have. But at least he/she gets to the destination. Automatic travel could be initiated from milemarkers on the side of the road. A simple gump could pop up asking the player to select which already-known location they would like to travel to. AI would take over and the character could log out, or simply sit back and half-watch the screen while reading a book, doing homework, watching the Simpsons, etc... but it's going to take the full walk time required.


NOW comes the fun part! Throw in random encounters. The logged-in character is now prepared to engage whatever beneficial situation might be there... the offline character never gets that.

OR, have random bandits (or player-bandits) appear from time-to-time. The logged in player traveling alone might have wished to group up instead. That opens up another avenue of ingame travel. Offline characters wishing to travel may have to queue up at towns, cities, milemarkers, whatever to form a decent sized caravan for protection. This is a con to offline travel and a pro for online travel. Thus being online means no waiting (a bonus, reward for playing), while offline travel means only lost time.

We can explore this travel idea even further and have NPCs or players lead the caravan for a small fee from the travelers. In past forum threads we discussed the idea of professions never thought of before... here's one. The traveller! (I think I'm going to make a caravan leader and call him 'Donner'). For those that don't get it, Google search "Donner party" or go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party.



This traveling system (if vital to PW player economy) could be a great way to make logged out still useful for players WITHOUT them gaining any real advantage over anyone else. Nothing is gained or lost except time... which is the EXACT thing we were discussing earlier. What do you think? I don't see any flaws in it at the moment, but then again I have a two-week old boy that hasn't let me get sleep lately.

I'm willing to lead a discussion group on this idea if we think it could actually work. Let me know.

Posted by: RicoSuave Feb 27 2007, 09:02 AM

(I was really hoping for some discussion on the above post)

Posted by: joshpurple Feb 27 2007, 02:30 PM

Heh, heh I appreciate that response, and Thank You Rico! (Pardon my delay, sorry!) Glad to hear you are taking care of your boy! (congrats again, and I'm sure you are tired! )

Indeed I know the Order of the Stick, great stuff! (I've been playing D&D since... ~age 15? So since 1980, maybe even 1979 .. I'm a geek! ).

Good ideas all, first, just had to say that.

Areas of consideration/focus: The number of different modes possible. Wandering Monsters. Player/NPC interaction. Challenge/Level of difficulty. And Travel (including Global events).

The part of Off line play is very tough, since -a 'base' level of game play is needed. What are the 'defaults.' Then, I guess, building off of the defaults to see what works & what doesn't.

For a 'default' level of play, I would guess (and this is just to start, not the final version/way it would work):

Start where you log out & your character is then gone from the world.
A combat system.
An Inventory system.
A Character Health / Stats system.
A communication system.
A Time system (based on movement in-game, player walk speed).
A persistent Game World (how that saves, Server Side / Player side).

And lots more after that (like skills, spells, etc. Lots more)

------------------------
So, the more different modes we have, the more we will have to work out how all of those modes will work in relation to; Combat, Inventory, Character Stats, Communication, Time, etc.

Examples; When I'm in 'Combat Mode,' can someone access my inventory and use it? Would it put that person in 'Combat mode' if they try to use my inventory? If someone is Off line, can their inventory be accessed? (more examples here, based on the list of 6 above).

I do like the idea of having lots of different modes, but I started with FPS and RP as an example of just using two, like a 'Global' mode (RP), and a 'Local' mode (FPS), -to possibly ease the level of complexity for having to 'blend' all of the different modes into the game. Again, I like the idea of lots of different modes .

For inventory, if the player goes Off line, with just the 'default' set-up, s/he would need to give the other players the inventory items they might want, before s/he logs out. Otherwise, they would not be available.
If that were to change, I could see where, as part of the communication system, you have your player friends added to your 'group,' then you could select your Off line player friend and send a note (or he would get a note); "PlayerWarrior001 used 3 healing vials from your inventory." A kind of log for him/her to see when they log back on. BUT, doing that could lead to LOTS of problems. Like, what if you can give your Off line player inventory items to carry? Would that become the 'Ultimate Bag of Holding?' Since s/he is not in the Friend group of the hostile Players that surprise and attack your party, the enemies would not be able to take any of the Off line player's inventory (or maybe, not even able to attack him/her). Players would create an account, and name the player, "My Bag of Holding Goodness Player." And just use that player as an Off line player that is grouped as a Friend. As long as that player is Off line, nothing can be stolen from them, if they die, very little will be lost, maybe they can be in charge of your mount & keep that safe? (BUT, I can see mounts as falling into an NPC class).

Combat system, -there's so much on this, I think it would not be a bad idea to say, to start, if you are Off line, you out of Combat.

Character Health / Stat system, -most likely this would need to be tied to a World Time system. Off line I can see World Time passing and that would allow for affecting stats, -healing. But, being able to Travel Off line & Heal, creates problems. If you go Off line when you are attacking a town, and you've suffered 90% loss of Health, the player could travel in a circle & get the 'Auto Travel Heal.' If entire armies used this method... I would guess it would get a little silly. You'd want to make sure that players would not Min/Max Off line Travel and Healing (and players Min/Max everything, I think ). Maybe, no healing if you are moving? (to start that is, the healing on a boat, or in a floating castle, etc. would maybe be a 'Global' location & as long as the 'Global' object is moving, but not under any 'Local' control, it could be used for moving and healing. BUT, that would be a very powerful 'object,' a special class of object ).

By default I like the idea of, you log out, you don't move, but with Time, you will heal.

For Global Time, I'm guessing, all will move constantly forward, VERY little will affect this ( BUT, time would be different in FPS play. In FPS play you would really not be able to safely, log out, let time pass and heal. My thought on that is, if you are in FPS play and you log out -your character is standing there & can be attacked, looted, killed, etc.).

Jumping a little here, but I see PW as being more PvP in style. If it was PvE, or Single Player mode, or Single Player mode with just friends ( limited form of Multiplayer game), then RP mode and FPS mode would need to be considered for both PvP & PvE (for how it might work..? )

I'm by no means hitting all of the items, -but I think it helps to consider starting with a small default level and building up from there (Fear of being overwhelmed ).

The Persistent World creates a LOT of areas where logging off can lead to dangers for the players. I don't think I want to encourage players to 'enjoy' Off line play. Or, have players try to Min/Max how they use Off line play to their advantage. I would push the idea of, 'you want to play PW, and you want to play it TONS!'

Part of that would be Wandering Monsters, or Random Encounters. Having NPCs, monsters, etc. 'pop' into existence would probably help balance the server load (so not ALL entities would have to be tracked by the game engine), BUT having all entities not 'popping' into the game -might be something players would REALLY dig . This is again, another HUGE area. I can see having entities that work as resources, 'popping' in, -example; Fish, deer, lone herd animal type, insect type, etc. But, intelligent predators, those that are 'player killer' types, -it would be kind of cool if that IQ does get 'tracked.'

So, how does the intelligent 'player killer' type in a Persistent World get to interact with the Off line player? (or even the player in RP mode). My thought on this is; In FPS mode, it kills you. In RP mode, it might get to kill you. So you might have situations where an intelligent 'player killer' could use a 'Global' type of attack to do damage to RP mode, or Off line players. Example: Evil God Floods a town, a Lich Meteor storms a boat/ship, a massive plague hits the land, etc. BUT, I do not like the idea that, when logged out, your character could be killed. That just really sucks for the player. SO, I hope that this 'system' would encourage players to; Go RP mode, find a safe place, and then log out (very much like what we do in Real Life, ... most of the time, when we want to go to sleep).

Well, that's enough of my rambling . There's so much MORE to consider, but it's good to discuss it . My apologies to those who have covered these items a million times, I'm sure many of these topics have been gone over and over. Leaving the World and Off line time is a big one. Again, I can only guess, start very small & try to create implementations that would = less work / less complexity, BUT like Jerky mentions, are still 'Outside of the Box.' (I always welcome any feedback, good or bad, and I Thank You for it! ).

Posted by: uulonze Mar 23 2007, 01:38 AM

I would go for charactor log off completely. This can save your bandwidth and let others have a change to log in (if server full). Also add immuse timer when log in, such as 5-10 sec to escape monster if you are in wildness or PK should there be any.

Posted by: Devils-Hawk Mar 7 2008, 11:00 AM

Hmm, as i don't think leaving players in the world is really feasable because of server load, lag, etc ... and just logging them off just invites cheaters, i thought about a 2-way approach.
If a player goes off or disconnects ( does not matter here ) (s)he will just cast your typical "Change to Stone" spell. The spell takes a certain amount off time where the player is still vulnerable to attacks but if you log off on your own u can choose to still control the player ( only running, no other interaction ) or just log off. After the spell is complete the players stats and inventory is saved but the statue of the player remains.
Now the statue can still be attacked by aggressive NPCs or other players. It has a certain amount of hp and if it gets destroyed the player will loose the exact respawning position and will be sent to a respawn point( begin of dungeon, nearest town, generally speaking somewhere its usually safe ). NPCs will only begin to attack a player statue if no other targets are around or not at all ( eg beasts, non sentient beings, ... ). If a player reconnects while the statue is still standing, (s)he will respawn at the exact same position (s)he was before by bursting out of the statue . If the character is still in the process of going to stone, the player will have to wait till the process is finished ( cheater protection ).
In town areas/safe locations its pretty annoying having all thoses statues standing around, so its probably best to just have them crumble after some while. Now with this setup you can add all kind of things (possibilities only): Being healed while in statue modus. Getting some gold/exp/stat penalty if it is destroyed. Striking poses before loggin off and letting others laught at you. Having a unique statue types for different races ( elves become trees, humans will change to mummies, ... ).

just some ideas, flame away
devh

Posted by: Jerky Mar 7 2008, 12:19 PM

Welcome to PW devh, and thanks for sharing that idea. That is a very interesting and unique idea; I'm impressed. That being said, there are a number of flaws with it (it's my job to find them, and help the idea be refined).

The first issue I see with this is that we are leaning a certain way in PW to have players stay in the game whether logged in or not, including having NPC workers, and all their 'alts.' The only way I could see a player actually disappearing from the world be to have them go inside their house because the player didn't give them anything to do while away.

The second issue with this is that griefers would take advantage of this system hugely. You would have players who just want to be jerks and go around killing statues.

The third issue is for performance reasons, but our idea also has this problem. To have so many things in the game world, the clients would be drawing a lot of extra geometry that wouldn't be serving a purpose. The server wouldn't have much of a problem with the statues, because to the server, a statue isn't going to take more resources than any other mob or npc, or item sitting on the ground.

Now, what I would like to see statues for is for player graveyards, and monuments. I think a player becoming a statue would only happen after a great deed, which is totally different from this idea.

Back to player logoff, I could see a player finding a place to hide, like you did in UO, but that would be a player choice, and I am still not sure if I would want them to disappear or not. But on that token, we'd have players running around exposing hidden players trying to get them killed, etc, but maybe that's just a risk the player must be willing to take? That's a tough one. We want the game to be accessible to players who don't have hours and hours of free time to play, so it's something that needs a good idea to fix.

I was originally against the idea of giving your character something to do while logged off, but I am now for it. We will have to keep things minimal, so it doesn't bog down the server, but maybe we could allow players to set up "bot" servers which host their offline scripts, so our servers wouldn't be the ones doing all the work. If you can't beat 'em, why not join 'em?

So, lets redo your idea a bit and see what we can come up with. Thoughts?

Posted by: Jerky Mar 7 2008, 01:19 PM

Just had a thought:
If players would stay in the world, and would therefore be vulnerable, they would need some sort of safe house/shelter. What if we allowed players to setup safe Inn's across the world. So we allow players to decide the best places to provide inn's for travelers, and then they can set them up themselves, paying an NPC to run it for them, and possible setting prices. Might be interesting.

Posted by: Brotoi Mar 7 2008, 11:17 PM

It seems to me that allowing simple activities such as buying/selling while offline would be very beneficial. However, encouraging combat activities, or allowing an online player to defeat the avatar of an offline player, just sounds like a really bad idea.

Mining might be useful as an activity the PC could continue with while offline. Traveling (as a passenger in a caravan or ship) over extreme distances would be another. Simple, repetitive crafting using components on hand (making arrows, for example) would be a good activity for the avatar to engage in while the player is absent. Any kind of boring gameplay that would have the player doing little or nothing beyond staring at the screen would be perfect for the avatar to engage in without direct control.

I do like the idea of using some kind of reward system to encourage players to check into an inn, make a campsite, or just crawl into their own bed in conjunction with logging off. When they log back on, they'd be back at their campsite, or whatever. Having some kind of cost in association with this, however, would seem like we were punishing the player for having a real life. Not a good direction to be moving in, I think.

Posted by: echorev Mar 7 2008, 11:26 PM

I'm in favor of travel, because if our world is really so big, then it might take an offline session to get anywhere.

Posted by: Jerky Mar 8 2008, 02:09 AM

Yes, I've got a good feeling about some of our ideas thus far regarding this. I think this is yet another area where we have the opportunity to set the trends for future MMO's.

I'm loving the travel idea, and I already have crafting, mining, harvesting, etc on the list. Of course, while in the game, some of those things could be done by the player's NPCs, or "stabled" characters.

But yes, definitely, Brotoi, we want to avoid players feeling punished or penalized for having to step away. Adding a slight challenge or minor inconvenience is one thing, but creating http://www.flyingscythemonkey.com/Pain.htm is another. <-- that's a good link to read on the subject of player "pain."

Posted by: sblmnl Mar 8 2008, 10:05 PM

[quote name='echorev' date='Mar 8 2008, 05:26 AM' post='13371']
I'm in favor of travel, because if our world is really so big, then it might take an offline session to get anywhere.

As someone who doesn't have a heap of time to play, being able to do routine, repetitive crafting tasks while offline would make the game a LOT more attractive - not being able to do this legally in UO, for example is one of the main reasons I quit that game after they introduced bulk orders - standing around at my forge banging out hundreds of the same thing to get another order to make more of the same stuff didn't feel like any kind of alternative world I wanted to be in. But I digress.

My 2c :-

1) In a rp sense I see a limited range of offline crafting could sort of replicate the trance-like effect of repetition in rl :-) As well as crafting skills like arrow-making etc already mentioned, you could heal up/tend to your weapons and armour (assuming they deteriorate faster eg in the rainy/steamy places on the map; if you've been wading through poisonous, fuming swamps, this would presumably be a fairly frequent requirement); spellweavers would perhaps meditate or mix up stock-in-trade potions etc.

Admittedly it can be decidedly counter-immersive to have a lot of afk avatars, perhaps it could be explained as "concentrating," so you see a message "[Name] seems to be absorbed in his/her work" and maybe the toon, when approached, could spam something like "Sorry I'm busy right now" in the local area only, more (or less) politely depending on their temperament (allow a longer text to be set by the player and it could also be a way to leave messages for prospective customers, friends etc ) Perhaps "concentrating" avatars could also have a coloured aura or similar you can see from a distance & know not to bother talking to them if it's going to annoy you that they're afk.

2) Skill gain should not be the primary objective of offline crafting, etc. (In fact I feel it should not be a primary objective of the game, for the same reasons Jerky explained earlier). With crafting, naturally you do gain expertise if you do something over and over but it's limited how much you can learn this way, so should be at a low level, eg making hundreds of yew arrows might increase your efficiency at working with yew and therefore maybe your ability to craft an exceptional (high value) yew longbow, but only a bit. Instead you would gain a huge amount of skill when you first learned how to make, and then actually successfully made your first yew longbow, and again each time you made an even better (higher value/more exceptional) one. You'd need to be awake and paying attention (online) to craft high-end bows or other equipment.

In the kit-maintainence example above, well-maintained armour might not rust as fast. It's not hard to think of other examples.

3) The "slight challenge/minor inconvenience": you would need to be somewhere safe like a guarded location eg, town workshop, or an inn - love the player-run wayfarers' inn idea, being able to pay for a meal and a safe place to sleep is a plus not a minus. You might also be able to shelter at another player's house if they invited you in.

To ensure it's only a minor inconvenience, its impoprtant to have a number of options for leaving the game, the "turn to stone" idea is a good one too, I think you should be invulnerable, but crumble (disappear) after a suitable period and wake up in the same spot (the anti exploit part being some kind of stat loss or delay in becoming fully functional after you log back in - there would have to be some aftereffects of turning yourself to stone, right?) or, if you have insufficient skill to cast the spell properly, perhaps you wake up at the closest waypoint instead of where you logged out, with a bit longer stat loss.

Given you've taken the trouble to learn to cast that spell well enough (or, you remembered to pack that elven cloak/ you have high hiding/forestry/ranger type skill if you're camping in the forest - another good solution someone mentioned) it should make you invulnerable to attack while offline. I totally agree that enabling other players, creatures etc to "damage" you while offline, is just asking for griefing behaviour.

I also think that houses/workshops outside guarded areas should be safe only if you remembered to lock the door! <-this depends somewhat on whether we have permadeath but if not, there should be a chance that if you permit other players, critters access to where you are in your creative trance (offline macroing) there's always a chance you can be attacked. Yes it would suck to wake up dead in your house like that but hey, that's why we have locksmiths and guard pets isnt it *still misses her Wish boxer dog* :/ . If you take the trouble to lock the door or set a guard you should be OK, except for "global" events possibly. You also may not be able to rely on town guards to 100% personally guard you from thieves eg if you keep valuables on you while you're sleeping in an inn, as they might be called away to protect the town/encampment from marauding bandits, wolves etc. but there should be a pretty high chance that town thieves will be apprehended and you'll have your goods returned. As above if you hire a personal bodyguard or command an appropriate pet to guard you you shoud be 100% OK.

4) To discourage the sort of "mule" scripting you see in UO, with avatars staying logged in all night and "magically" having thousands of whatever item they were making in the morning (not so good for the economy), you'd need to be limited to using whatever resources are in your inventory. When the avatar has finished its particular task, or run out of the resources it needs, it should go to bed (become a stationary object, kinda like the statue idea but a sleeping body lying in a bed) - this might help with the server load problem Jerky mentioned. (I've always thought it wierd that in most games, the beds are always empty lol). Then each time you login = you wake up, yawn, stretch etc :-).

If your avatar is holding something that you want a friend or guildie to have access to when your avatar's offline, put in a shared container chest at the guildhall or in your house etc before logging off and send them a pigeon to let them know. Simple.

Therefore the "challenge/inconvenience" is having to find the safe place, remember to lock the door, and get all the stuff together that you need.

5) I am not sure I support offline resource gathering. Apart from introducing issues associated with players potentially becoming super-rich by (ab)using it to hoard vast quantities of resources, it just doesn't make sense to me that this is something you could do in a "trance". Also, you need to go outside your house/town and as we all know, it's a dangerous world out there ;-0 which introduces a whole raft of new issues to manage server-side. We seem to all be agreed that resource gathering as implemented in monthly-fee games is mostly mindless clicking (that apart from some possible dangers of being attacked could equally well be done offline, by macroing) which can be incredibly time consuming (and mind numbingly boring). I am not anti-macro at all, nor much of an rp-er but it can also be a reason to explore and a chance to gain experience by interacting with the world outside your front gate. In pre-industrial world, resource gathering shouldn't be an activity restricted to only a hardcore rp fringe, which is a possibility if you let people macro it. In short, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...

I think we should aim for nothing less than to remove "time spent in the game clicking on things" - irrespective of whether online or afk - as the major differentiator of access to basic resources and therefore of access to many skill building opportunities. This could be acheived by increasing the spawn rate of basic materials for everyone so that they are cheap, and easy and quick to obtain. You could either buy cheaply from well-stocked NPCs, or if you want to chop your wood yourself as a noob with your noob hatchet, you should be able to harvest large amounts of the wood common in your area without needing to spend lots of time on it. (Another way to help this would be to tweak the resource quantities required for items). Perhaps your resource availability/skill gain could even be higher if you've been logged off for a long time though this might be difficult to implement.

The exciting thing here is that breaking the nexus of skill development with "mining", "gathering" etc activities would provide the opportunity, instead, to link it instead to your real experiences inside the game world. In fact if you think of it as "experience" rather than "skill" it makes a lot more sense I think.

An example: the number of wood etc you get from rarer trees might be based on something like the quality of your axe, your expertise as a forester - your knowledge of trees, experience you've developed perhaps from ranging through different forests becoming familiar with the different trees that grow there, plus seeking out and learning from expert foresters in other locations etc rather than how many hours you've spent chopping trees. Imo this was one of the things the original Wish got wrong I think, my char was an elf yet the only way for her get enough resources to to train as a noob forester/bowyer was by spending her days hacking at trees??.

It would probably mean that instead of needing to find particular mobs to level up combat skills on, you'd gain experience pretty fast just by using your weapon to attack a wide range of them, and maybe some form of powerleveling from grouping with more experienced players, plus learning from npc "experts" in places you travel to. To me this would be vastly preferable to the ability to level up offline by whacking away at a training dummy.

I don't claim that these are new ideas but I think the overall points that the primary way to gain skill shouldnt be from doing the same thing over and over, irrespective of whether you're online or not, and that you'd clearly need to be "awake" (online) to do this, are worth making again. I think to have it any other way would be to miss a huge opportunity to maybe be the first game that really puts the gameplay at the centre of the experience, rather than grinding particularly for new characters or time-poor players like me. Which brings me to the travel issue:

6. While alternatives to foot-travel are essential I think, I see offline travel as only acceptable from one known place to another known place, and only if it takes a bit of planning and effort, eg, you have to find a caravan master /stable master/public teleporter thingy wherever you are and pay the fee to be transported to the (known) location. If we have a permaworld (not instanced) this could provide another player job role, otherwise may need to ibe something which should be done only via NPC rather than players - in Guild Wars (instanced) there is a similar thing players have developed where your noob avatar pays a higher level player to "run" you to an area you haven't yet visited. If they make it, it will be opened on your map despite the fact you've just been idling at the starting point. You're paying the player for their exertise in being able to stay alive while running thru hordes of attackers, plus knowing the way. This is not a bad thing per se but it is very open to scamming.

Would most posters here agree the only way for most characters to open a new location on your map (ie unless there is a teleporter etc available) should be to physically walk/ride there, either solo (taking your chances) or as part of a guarded caravan or similar (more defence but still an attractive target for bandits etc)...?

I personally wouldn't want to see "offline travel" either via players or npcs as becoming the preferred mode. The fact that getting from A to B could be such a huge adventure in the original Wish was part of why it was such a great game - you didn't have to make up your "travellers tales", it was just what actually happened to you while you were logged in:D

Posted by: Minthos Mar 9 2008, 12:54 PM

Too long, didn't read.

Posted by: Brotoi Mar 9 2008, 06:04 PM

There comes a point where having too much reality in a world destroys the fantasy, and for me, this is one of them. A player's personal assets must be completely protected while the player is offline. Granted, it's all virtual and it's just a game, there are still many people who have deep emotional investments in their character and whatever ingame wealth (large or small) they've managed to accumulate. Statistically, it is safe to assume that these players will make up the majority of whatever playerbase we manage to build, so if the game ever makes it possible in any way for an offline player to lose life or ingame assets, we'll accomplish nothing more than shooting ourselves in our collective feet.

The illusion of personal safety is one of the major draws fantasy has over real-life. Let's not destroy the fantasy by making it too realistic.



Other than mining, neither do I. And, let me also add, if we implement mining in a manner that requires a constant search for small pockets of minerals/metals, then not even mining needs to be available as an offline task.

Any task that requires decision-making, searching, exploring, experimenting, constant comparison and matching, or other conscious intervention definitely should not be available as an offline chore, and the game system itself should require enough player awareness and diverse inputs that such tasks are nearly impossible to script anyway.

Buying/selling from a personal store such as in Lineage II or Ragnarok Online = boring
Mining in a fixed location with an ingame macro such as in RF Online = boring
Crafting small items in large quanities in almost every game = boring

If there is any task/activity ingame where a player might as well be watching televsion with the game running in the background, then that task needs to be either removed, redesigned, or enabled as an offline activity.

I would rather every bow came complete with unlimited arrows then have some poor crafter spend six hours repeating the same half-dozen keystrokes in order to meet the needs of the arrow-buying market. Of the two, unlimited arrows is far less damaging to the ingame experience of the majority of players.

Posted by: Minthos Apr 24 2008, 08:46 PM

I suggest hands-off batch production for this one. In Wish, when you crafted something, it would take a certain time to finish, meanwhile you could walk around in the current town and return to the crafting station when it was done. Allowing a player to log off while crafting sounds reasonable too, I think. Combined with telling the game how many copies you want made of said item, making a few thousand arrows shouldn't be a major chore.

Posted by: RicoSuave Apr 25 2008, 11:11 AM

I think Minthos is right in the fact that crafting should be one of those things best left to offline (ingame) macros. However, I disagree with the idea of being able to walk around town while your character is focusing his/her attention on a tradeskill that takes extreme attention.
In a separate thread Jerky mentioned ways of getting others to log off (to help reduce power gaming). Perhaps if crafting is a one-action-only action, it would make players want to spend that time offline (while still getting things done in game).
If we implement the character rest/sleep idea we spoke of LONG ago, the macro could state something along the lines of:
<macro>
Do: {50% of total time offline}
- Make: Craft basic arrows
- Make: Craft basic bows
Do: {48% of total time offline}
- Rest: Sleep
Do: {2% of total time offline}
- Spam: "Bows and Arrows available! Custom orders possible..."
- Spam: "Reduced prices for large-quantity orders..."
- Spam: "Will return soon."
</macro>
Big Brother will need to make sure no one can spam chat more than XX% of the time. Little bothers me more than spam. Perhaps we could add a tag for any spammed chat that could be filtered by the client or simply by human eyes... i.e.
[spam] <Rico> Shine your armor for a copper.
[spam] <Rico> Hey, give me back my dolly.
<Minthos> Does anyone know how to silence a spammer?
<NJPaul> Go to Communication Options, check on "silence spam," and enjoy.
<Jerky> Or, just wait until the guard's back is turned and plunge a dagger between the 5th and 6th rib.
<Minthos> haha
<Brotoi> lol

Or make all offline spam be a different hard to read color...
[spam] <Rico> Shine your armor for a copper.
[spam] <Rico> Hey, give me back my dolly.

But to restate my original reply, I think Minthos is right about having crafting take a while and be available offline.

Posted by: ghedipunk Apr 25 2008, 02:47 PM

How about a script like this:

A home object would have to be set before executing scripts... Scripts only run while a player is near their home object, and scripts can not change the home... Home objects can be a building, a caravan, or optionally a person.

This script would defend the player's home, and if the home is not threatened, he will run a storefront. Once an item runs low on stock, he'll close up shop, gather materials, and make replacement items.

Gathering could be set to scavenging for items, or buy them from other players and/or NPCs... Obvioiusly scavenging would be more cost effective, but if an item isn't just laying around, such as wood from a tree, then it will have to be purchased.


There are some minor problems with a script like this... such as, what happens if it is impossible to scavenge an item without leaving the home area, but it gets the basic point across, no?