Meeting Log Jan, 29 2005 Options

[Mikhail]

18:59 <@Mole> ok, let's get this started. i'm not going to mod the channel unless things get too crazy
18:59 * bird slaps luci, get some good music
18:59 * Luciole slaps bird
18:59 < Luciole> like?
18:59 <@Mole> welcome to meeting #2.
19:00 < Mouglue> :-)
19:00 <@Mole> let's stay on topic so that i don't have to mod things. (it's easier for open discussion this way)
19:00 <@Mole> topic #1. how will the requirements phase work?
19:01 <@Mole> i'll tell you how were planning on doing it, then we can all chime i with suggestions/comments
19:01 <@Mole> we're going to collect game requirements from the community in 2 phases: major requirements and minro requirements.
19:01 <@Mole> the names are just something we're calling them
19:02 -!- Hamled
19:02 <@Mole> the major requirements will be things like PvP, PnC, combat, open skill system, crafting, etc
19:02 <@Mole> all of the topics should be broad and non-specific
19:03 <@Mole> when we collect the minor requirements, this is where we'll get specific on things. (like how will crafting work in detail, etc)
19:03 <@Mole> to make things easier, as new topics are added to the thread they will be added to the main post and deleted from the thread.
19:04 <@Mole> this will save people needing to read 5+ pages of posts to make sure they don't dupe things
19:04 <@Mole> major requirements will be collected for (approx) 2 weeks
19:04 <@Mole> each minor requirement will go for approx the same time as well.
19:05 < RedR> this in the idea's section I assume?
19:05 <@Mole> if a topic is really active, we'll keep it going as long as we have to
19:05 <@Mole> RedR, we'll create a new section just for these requirements. that way they don't get lost in the other ideas that people are discussing
19:05 <@Mole> questions/comments?
19:06 < RedR> perhaps a section on the site for IRC/meeting logs too?
19:06 <@silmaril> have new thread restrictions on that forum to have it a bit more structured
19:06 <@Mole> the forums will be getting an overhaul soon. :)
19:06 <@Fuinelen> (thanks to Skywisenight)
19:06 < bird> errr 1 question, are these major requirments facts or is it all just still speculation?:p
19:07 <@Mole> what do you mean?
19:07 <@silmaril> bird: this will be the requriments the game will be made after
19:07 < bird> are they gonna be in, or are u still discussing it
19:07 < bird> :p
19:07 < Possum> how are we going to choose what to ask about? ie, how do we decide the "list" of major reqs to ask for input on?
19:07 <@Fuinelen> Bird, they are meant to be in
19:07 <@Mole> obviously there will be requirements that are opposites: PvP & no PvP
19:07 < bird> fuin: rgr, noted ;)
19:08 <@silmaril> Possum: I suggest the major topics, perhaps with a thread on the open forum to suggest topics right away
19:08 * silmaril can't form sentences
19:08 < Possum> k, so the obvious, then ask for suggestions for others?
19:08 <@Mole> we'll have a topic thread and a discussion thread
19:08 <@silmaril> yea, and make a thread for each topic
19:08 -!- Keyu has joined #projectwish
19:09 <@Mole> keep in mind that this is going to be hard work. MR spent 1.5 years collecting their game requirements before they started coding
19:09 < Possum> it's going to be hard for people to stay on the major and not go right to the "minor"
19:09 * Possum nods
19:10 <@Mole> minor requirements in the "major" thread will be deleted
19:10 < Possum> who is going to decide, for instance, if a suggested major requirement is going to have its own topic?
19:10 <@Mole> they all will.
19:10 < Possum> or be deleted?
19:10 <@silmaril> if it's broad enough for a major topic, then it's in a thread of its own, otherwise it will be too detailed and deleted
19:11 < Possum> i mean, who makes the judgement call?
19:11 <@Mole> the minor requirement will be deleted from the major requirement thread. there will be ample time for them to be added to the minor thread about said requirement
19:11 < Keyu> commander mole
19:11 < Possum> delete, make a thread, etc
19:11 <@strangerr> Possum, I would say mole will :)
19:11 < bird> lol
19:11 * Possum nods
19:11 <@Mole> the team leads will make the call together, and one of us will enforce
19:11 <@Mole> it won't be just me making decisions.
19:12 <@Mole> yes keyu?
19:12 < Keyu> oh i was just indicating you were the commander ;)
19:12 <@Mole> :)
19:12 < bird> rofl
19:12 <@silmaril> <--- sidekick sil
19:12 < Keyu> but would that be field marshal or commander in chief....
19:12 <@Mole> ok, let's stay on topic
19:13 <@Mole> possum, are you afraid that ideas will be lost?
19:13 < Possum> somewhat, and also just wondering ...
19:13 < Possum> hmm, how to put this
19:13 <@Mole> just say it. :)
19:13 < Possum> i can see there has to be a big armwaving phase
19:14 < Possum> everything gets thrown on the table, but it seems to me that there has to be some sort of methodology for deciding priorities
19:14 * strangerr nods
19:14 <@Mole> the requirements phase will generate a lot of.... discussion
19:14 <@silmaril> Possum: priorites comes later
19:14 < bird> mole, in what way do you mean details in crafting? do u mean u actually have to shape things urself using tools? O.o that would be fun
19:14 <@silmaril> that will be up to the dev team
19:14 < Possum> sil, no....
19:14 < Possum> in every phase you will end up with priorities whether you like it or not
19:14 < Possum> if you want any sort of order to the process
19:15 < Possum> example...
19:15 <@Mole> bird, i mean that the major requirement is that we allow crafting. the minor requirements for crafting are how it works, what we can craft, etc
19:15 -!- Modeq has joined #projectwish
19:15 -!- Modeq
19:15 < bird> rgr that
19:15 <@silmaril> Possum: yea, but from the major requirements the dev team will pick out the most important and go to minor requirements on that
19:15 < Possum> obviously pnc vs wasd is a major req, but I also think making some decisions on what sort of player we are expecting to have
19:16 < Possum> who decides if my topic is going to be discussed or deleted? and on what basis? that's the kind of thing I meant
19:16 <@strangerr> Possum, Team Leaders would be the ones that decide that I belive
19:16 < Possum> and if the team is going to do it, that's fine, i'm just asking
19:16 <@Mole> possum, both pnc and wasd would be major requirements
19:16 <@Mole> we wouldn't delete either of them
19:16 < Possum> what about say, a topic on what kind of player?
19:17 -!- Luciole is now known as Luci|Dinner
19:17 <@Mole> example?
19:17 <@silmaril> that's more of a goal thing
19:17 < Possum> powergamer vs explorer, crafter, etc
19:17 < Possum> and what defines them
19:17 <@Mole> is that really a game requirement?
19:17 < Possum> well this is my question
19:17 < Possum> you define it however you want to
19:17 < bird> lol
19:17 < RedR> I think thats more an economic issue
19:17 <@Mole> those types of players exist regardless of the game
19:18 < Possum> but if you ignore it, the design of the game will be affected
19:18 <@silmaril> iirc we will see those things in the overall goals. which players we want to target
19:18 < Possum> yes, but all games can't be everything to all people
19:18 <@Lucky_Luciano> I don't think we should build a game to *specificaly* target powerplayers for example
19:18 <@Mole> Possum - exactly!
19:18 < Possum> to me, it's what defines everything else, what you put in and what you don't
19:18 <@Lucky_Luciano> Well Possum, its Project Wish. I'm pretty sure we'll try to target the some audience
19:19 <@Lucky_Luciano> same*
19:19 <@Mole> a requirement of "this game must specifically target power players" would be a major requirement
19:19 <@Mole> the details of *how* we do that are minor requirements
19:19 < RedR> as well I think that also builds requirements that target pitfalls from previous MMORPGs
19:19 <@silmaril> Possum: the details of which topics to discuss can be taken to the forum. I suggest that we move on to the next topic on the agenda
19:19 <@Mole> what we're doing in this phase is defining how our game works
19:20 <@Mole> no, i want to make sure that possum understands how this is going to work before we move on
19:20 < Possum> thanks mole
19:21 <@Mole> if we have to, we can take it out of the meeting. something tells me that other people have the same question though.
19:21 < Possum> and i don't want to make this issue a topic of discussion here and now, just want to know the mechanics of the process
19:21 < Possum> who decides what
19:21 <@Mole> team leads decide what topics are major/minor
19:21 < bird> Mole: will it be targetted more towards guild based players establishing friendly and hostile boundries or more like free for all ?:P
19:21 <@Mole> (some will be obvious though)
19:21 * Possum nods
19:22 <@Mole> bird, that will be a requirement that we have to define
19:22 <@silmaril> Possum: as I see it: 1. we discuss which topics to address on the forums. 2. these topics get it's own thread
19:22 < bird> rgr
19:22 <@Mole> yes silmaril
19:23 <@Mole> feeling better with this possum?
19:23 < Possum> somewhat ;)
19:23 <@strangerr> :)
19:23 < Possum> you may hear from me again, but yes, thanks ;)
19:23 -!- Anonymous has joined #projectwish
19:23 <@Mole> ok. feel free to contcat me after the meeting to discuss further
19:23 <@Mole> moving on.
19:24 <@Mole> topic #2 update on team selection process
19:24 -!- Anonymous is now known as Liorick
19:24 < Mouglue> :-)
19:24 < bird> thats what you've been waiting for strangerr ! xD
19:24 <@Mole> we're just about ready to "officially" start selecting our teams
19:24 <@strangerr> bird, :)
19:25 <@Mole> some people have been hand selected by team leads
19:25 <@Mole> other will be selected from the apps sent in
19:25 <@Mole> why is this taking so long? i'll tell you...
19:25 <@Mole> we have been working to define what each team does, why they do it, how they do it, etc.
19:26 <@Fuinelen> Mole, can people still apply to the team leaders?
19:26 <@Mole> we feel that this is important so that people understand what is expected of them before they commit to doing things.
19:26 <@Mole> Fuinelen, yes. people can apply to team leaders if they want.
19:27 <@Mole> our official team requirements will be posted in the next few days. there are a few changes that we need to make first.
19:27 <@Mole> questions/comments?
19:28 * Mouglue raises hand
19:28 < bird> lol
19:28 <@Mole> yes?
19:28 < Mouglue> So we will be contacted by the Team Leader if they accept us?
19:28 <@Lucky_Luciano> Yes
19:28 <@Mole> yes
19:28 <@strangerr> yes
19:28 <@Lucky_Luciano> I'll contact any client-appliants personnalyh
19:28 < Mouglue> Umm
19:29 <@Mole> also, teams will be officially announced in a few weeks on the forums.
19:29 < Mouglue> As a Programer do I fall under Client side? or Server SIde? :-)
19:29 * Fuinelen gives mouglue a nice centerfold picture from Playelf for being polite ;)
19:29 < bird> Question: if the teams are chosen, are they locked away from the community to do their own thing, or does the community still have an influence?
19:29 <@silmaril> lucky and myself will probably go through some of the coder applications together so we get good people on both sides of the cables
19:29 <@Lucky_Luciano> Mougle, the client-teama and server-team will work *very* close together
19:29 <@Mole> Mouglue, it would depend on what team you wanted to join
19:29 <@strangerr> bird, community has influence but that also depends what team
19:29 <@Lucky_Luciano> But, you can choose whatever you like more...
19:29 * Mouglue justs wants to Help. ;-)
19:30 <@Mole> bird, the community still has influence.
19:30 <@silmaril> bird: community will work out all requirements, dev team will prioritize them and have the final calls
19:30 * Mouglue goes back to Lurking
19:30 <@Mole> all this is defined in the team requirements. :)
19:30 <@strangerr> coders might want less influence than story writers for example
19:30 <@Lucky_Luciano> Upon today, most people applied for server-team, so you might maje more chance as a client-developer ;)
19:30 < bird> i mean in good ideas for either creaters or the story or what so ever
19:30 <@Lucky_Luciano> make*
19:30 <@Fuinelen> what Silmaril said applies to grafic-people. They will be assigned to the different teams by Skywisenight, Zideon and me
19:30 < bird> story makers*
19:30 < bird> *creatures
19:30 < bird> :p
19:31 <@silmaril> bird: to be able to have some surprising turns of events and secrets in the story, the final story will be a guarded secret. I am sure they are open to influence though
19:31 <@Lucky_Luciano> Mougle, if you are a decent (C/C++) programmer, then I'm sure you'll fit right in somewhere in the team ;)
19:31 < bird> :o rgr that, thnx
19:31 <@Mole> team leads will also ask if you want to be on their team. if you don't want to be on the such-n-such team then you can say no
19:32 <@Mole> any other questions/comments?
19:32 <@Lucky_Luciano> Oh yeah...
19:32 <@Mole> ?
19:33 < RedR> one question bout teams and tools..
19:33 <@strangerr> bird if you have any suggestions or feel that you might help out in the story PM me and we will talk about that :)
19:33 <@Lucky_Luciano> as Client-team leader i'll probably ask the appliants to write a small program, to test your C/C++ skills. Be prepared :)
19:33 <@Mole> ok RedR
19:33 < RedR> I assume that the leads will get in sync on what tools are to be used and whats "right out"?
19:33 <@Mole> RedR -- yes
19:33 <@Lucky_Luciano> nothing big though. Don't worry :)
19:33 < bird> strangerr: will do, but i doubt i can come up with something good :p
19:33 < RedR> tools being what version of Visual Studio, or gmax vs 3ds.. that sort
19:34 <@Mole> yes
19:34 <@silmaril> which tools to use are being worked on
19:34 <@Mole> all that will be in the team requirement docs
19:34 <@Mole> :)
19:34 < RedR> as well source control? is a CVS box/server an option right now?
19:34 <@silmaril> RedR: probably svn
19:34 <@silmaril> at least if I get to decide :)
19:34 < RedR> sure would be nice to get those kinda docs in source control now IMO
19:34 <@silmaril> those are in a wiki
19:35 <@Mole> those docs aren't part of the team requirements, but they are also there.
19:35 < RedR> well wiki really isn't source control
19:35 <@Mole> coding requirements, etc will also be part of this documentation
19:35 <@silmaril> no, but source will go with a source control system. the wiki will be used at least until we have decided on a final project managment tool
19:36 <@Mole> we hope to have all this worked out in the next week or so. things are moving along at a good pace, but there is a lot to look at and we are trying hard to make informed decisions
19:36 <@Mole> any other questions/comments?
19:37 <@Mole> ok. moving on.
19:37 < RedR> yes
19:37 < bird> RedR i doubt that could be mulol
19:37 < RedR> sorry, just one more Q
19:37 <@strangerr> ;]
19:37 * Mouglue raises hand again. :-)
19:37 <@Mole> ok red
19:37 < bird> O.o wtf
19:37 < bird> wonder where that came from
19:37 <@Mole> Mouglue, you can go after red
19:37 < RedR> shedules/meetings and such, one thing I've noticed on other projects like this, some ppl tend to fade in and out
19:38 <@Mole> all that is covered in the team requirements doc
19:38 < RedR> thx
19:38 <@Mole> we talk about meeting frequence, participation, etc
19:38 <@Mole> ok Mouglue, now you
19:39 <@Mole> frequency*
19:39 < Mouglue> I assume that project team members when picked will get that wiki access? and If I am picked to be a "Coder", I would have to know what version of C++ is going to be used before hand.. to make sure I have the correct compiler, etc.
19:39 <@silmaril> Mouglue: yes
19:39 <@Mole> yes. all developers will have wiki access
19:39 * Mouglue goes back to Lurking
19:39 <@silmaril> all team requirements will be posted in public
19:40 <@Fuinelen> Mouglue, we're trying to keep the requirements as low as possible, from a financial point of view, but we may have to rely on some payware, which you will have to OWN
19:40 < Mouglue> :-)
19:40 <@Mole> ok? moving on?
19:40 * Mouglue owns Legal copies of VS 6 VS.Net and a few others.
19:41 <@Mole> moving on
19:41 -!- dezwo has joined #projectwish
19:41 <@Mole> topic #3. xp requirements
19:41 <@Mole> we are going to use "extreme programming" methods to help us deliver our product
19:42 <@Mole> for those of you who don't know what that is, here is a quick article that gives an explaination:
19:42 <@Mole> http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm
19:42 < RedR> also known as Agile eh
19:42 <@Mole> yes, also known as agile development
19:43 < RedR> silly question, so excuse my ignorance.. why XP? It seems a bit extreme for such a project
19:43 <@Mole> http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm
19:43 <@Mole> i'll get to that in a second...
19:43 < RedR> I mean without clients/customers driving and reviewing deliverables, why XP vs a different methodology?
19:44 <@Mole> these are the benefits of using XP:
19:44 <@Mole> Customer Driven
19:44 <@Mole> Priority and work effort are used to predict when the project will be done
19:44 <@Mole> Software is produced in a series of small, iterative efforts
19:44 <@Mole> All code is obsessively tested
19:44 <@Mole> Entire system (program) runs all the time
19:44 <@Mole> Code is in a consistent style
19:44 <@Mole> Code is collectively owned
19:45 <@Mole> Programming is done in pairs (two eyes are better than one)
19:45 <@Mole> oh, and XP is fun. (thanks dez)
19:45 < RedR> thats more code review no?
19:45 <@Mole> yes, the pair programming lends itself to code review nicely
19:45 < RedR> well, sorry to be a thorn on this, and maybe best offline later? I just feel that XP is still in its infancy and still needs alot of TLC
19:46 <@Mole> xp works
19:46 * Mouglue raises hand again. :-)
19:46 <@Mole> it doesn't take a lot to understand, and people catch on quickly and see results fast.
19:46 <@Mole> yes Mouglue?
19:46 < RedR> agreed, but far as I've read so far, its still evolving yes?
19:47 <@Mole> that's the point of XP. it will always be evolving
19:47 < RedR> was thinking more of waterfall than XP for such a project
19:47 < Mouglue> Has it been proven to work in a project like this? Where the programers are not in the same room. where the project is "on-going" with no "Set" defination?
19:47 <@silmaril> RedR: what we will focus on from xp will be small iterations, focus on testing and colletivly owned IP
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19:47 <@silmaril> pair programming will obviously not work like in "normal" xp projects
19:48 <@Mole> yes, Mouglue. i use it in my RL job. i'm the lead programmer on a team of people from 4 different countries. of the 6 people on the team, only 2 of us are in the same building/state
19:49 <@Mole> as sil has pointed out, not all of the XP requirements work in a "cross site" project like this
19:49 <@Mole> here's how PW will use XP:
19:49 < Mouglue> Mole... In your RL job the programers are face to face.
19:49 <@silmaril> RedR: since very few have much experience from games development, a waterfall model is unsuitable. also I suspect that too much time spent in early phases will take some of the interest and momentum out of a project like this
19:49 < Mouglue> Things are harder over the net
19:49 <@Mole> Mouglue, only 2 of the 6 are face to face
19:50 <@Mole> Customer driven. The PW community helps to define all of the features of our game
19:50 <@Mole> Community will have input each quarter to let us know what they feel is important
19:50 <@Mole> Software is produced in a series of small, iterative efforts
19:50 <@Mole> Software will be developed in one month cycles rather than two week cycles
19:50 <@Mole> Public releases occur every quarter (every 3 cycles)
19:50 * Mouglue goes back to Lurking. Its worth a shot to learn this "XP" thing.
19:50 <@Mole> Full system builds and tests will occur at every code check-in.
19:50 <@Mole> Each software release MUST pass ALL unit tests before check-in
19:51 <@Mole> Code will be collectively owned by team (Server Team will own server code, Client Team will own the client code, etc
19:52 <@Mole> if a team wants to do "pair programming" over the net, they can use netmeeting or something. it will be up to teams to use this though
19:52 <@Mole> this gives us some wins:
19:52 <@Mole> - everyone knows what is going on
19:52 <@Mole> - everyone knows what is being worked on and when
19:53 <@Mole> - our game always "works"
19:53 * Possum raises her hand
19:53 <@Mole> - the PW community has constant input as to what we work on next
19:53 <@Mole> i feel like some kind of school marm
19:53 <@Lucky_Luciano> :)
19:53 <@strangerr> ;]
19:53 <@Mole> Possum?
19:54 < Possum> well i could scream if you like
19:54 < Possum> k, i'm not a programmer, so bear with me
19:54 <@Mole> ;)
19:54 <@Fuinelen> Possum, only if you can scream like a japanese schoolgirl who has just seen an idoru :P
19:54 <@Lucky_Luciano> Don't worry possum, let's hear it :)
19:54 < Possum> where in this does the vision come in? in the customer model...
19:55 < Possum> you would i guess sit down with customer and define what they think they want
19:55 < Possum> and then go do it, yes?
19:55 <@Mole> the customer is always involved in every step
19:55 < Possum> so the customer provides the vision
19:55 <@Mole> so the vision gets defined and changed as the project goes along
19:55 < Possum> ok, well, one of the things worrying me
19:55 <@Mole> the "customer" becomes part of the development team
19:56 < Possum> and partly this comes from some recent reading about game development
19:56 < Possum> is that historically a lot of probs have come to mmrpg projects by
19:56 < Possum> not having a plan from the start and sticking to it, but changing as things went along
19:56 < Possum> i'm just throwing this out as a concern
19:56 < Possum> you guys have the experience, not me
19:56 <@Mole> xp does have a plan from the start (they call it a "user story")
19:57 < Possum> ok
19:57 <@Mole> all of the user stories together form the plan for the program
19:57 < Possum> that's what Possum wants to see, the user story ;)
19:57 <@Mole> the customer says what the user stories are (the requirements)
19:57 * Possum nods attentively
19:57 <@Mole> the customer says which thing should be worked on next
19:58 <@Mole> the customer gives feedback during the entire project, not just at the end when it's too late
19:58 < Possum> ok, let me summarize how i understand it now, and tell me if i'm wrong
19:58 <@Mole> dez is going to give an example!
19:58 < Possum> ok
19:58 * Possum waits
19:59 * Mouglue watches
19:59 -!- Mikhail_Zz is now known as Mikhail_
19:59 <@Mikhail_> pardon my lateness, had a networking lesson i could not get away from
19:59 < dezwo> A sample user story (with a rather small scope) would be: "I want to mix to metals to make an alloy."
20:00 < dezwo> two metals even.
20:00 < Possum> in an game?
20:00 < dezwo> Well, yes :)
20:00 < Possum> k
20:00 -!- Liorick
20:00 -!- mickske has joined #projectwish
20:01 -!- Emerasleep is now known as Emeraven
20:01 < bird> ahoy raven
20:01 -!- dezwo is now known as dezwo|afk
20:01 < Possum> hah
20:01 < bird> & mik & the rest
20:01 < Jerky> we were all waiting :P
20:01 <@Mole> understand any better Possum?
20:01 < Possum> lol
20:01 <@Mole> :p
20:02 < Jerky> thought there was more to it
20:02 <@Mole> apparently not.
20:02 < Possum> k while he's gone, lemme just tell you what i think i understand you mean
20:02 < Possum> tell me if i'm wrong
20:02 <@Mole> ok
20:02 < Possum> lets call PW wish forums our customer
20:02 < Possum> they want us to develop a game
20:02 < Possum> we know they liked wish
20:02 < Possum> but that's about all we know
20:03 < Possum> now, you are syaing that this method says, we "sit down" with them and collect their requirements (in the forum)
20:03 < Possum> starting with major requirements
20:03 < Possum> am I good so far?
20:03 <@Mole> no, it says sit down with the customer and have them tell their user stories
20:04 < Possum> ok what are those? describe a user story?
20:04 <@Mole> "i want to play a mmorpg that is like wish that....
20:04 < Jerky> pretty close though
20:04 < Mouglue> umm Mole that sounds like the forums to me
20:04 <@Mole> they tell a "story" of what they want
20:04 < Possum> ok
20:05 < Jerky> story = their requirments?
20:05 <@Mole> then we take that story and split it into parts
20:05 < Possum> but it's gonna be a pretty hit or miss story, by nature
20:05 <@Mole> yes Jerky
20:05 <@Mole> yes Possum
20:05 < Possum> so who makes it into a whole, and on what yardsticks? (i'd call this the vision)
20:05 <@Mole> but then for each part of their story, we ask them to get more specific
20:06 < Minthosafk> I think someone are misinterpreting extreme programming, or at least applying rules that don't really apply - I mean, you as a dev team don't have a regular "customer" that you are writing something specific for, your "customer" is yourselves.. of course you should take advice from your fans, but keep in mind that developing a game like this and developing a program specifically tailored for a particular customer is quite different thin
20:06 <@Mole> the entire team makes it into a whole, the devs and the customers are the same team
20:06 <@Mole> Possum, check out this web page: http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm
20:06 < Possum> k
20:07 <@Mole> right minthos. PW is its own customer.
20:07 < Possum> maybe it would be better to use a movie analogy
20:08 -!- Mortideus is now known as Mort|Shoveling
20:08 <@Mole> there are a lot of good things on the net that say what XP is.
20:08 -!- mode/#projectwish by Mikhail_
20:08 -!- mode/#projectwish by Mikhail_
20:08 <@Mole> talk to me after the meeting if you don't understand XP and need a better explaination
20:08 < Possum> because the "customer" will experience the game the sum of its parts
20:08 -!- mode/#projectwish by Mikhail_
20:09 < Possum> i think i'm getting the idea of XP fine
20:09 <@Mole> ok
20:09 <@Mole> the whole point is that this will have us producing results and producing them often
20:09 * Possum nods
20:10 <@Mole> tangable results are a good thing
20:10 < raz-sleepin> often being once every month?
20:10 -!- raz-sleepin is now known as Razaekel
20:10 <@Mole> once a quarter, raz.
20:10 < Razaekel> k
20:10 <@Mole> we'll have smaller results each month
20:10 <@Mole> ok? moving on?
20:10 <@Mikhail_> aye
20:11 <@Mole> topic #5. goals
20:11 <@Mole> the dev team is still working on these. we're getting really close. expect to see something posted within the week.
20:12 <@Mole> that's all i had to say about that. it was more of an update really.
20:12 <@strangerr> ;]
20:12 <@Mole> moving on.
20:12 <@Mole> topic #5. opens
20:12 * Emeraven smiles
20:12 < Razaekel> >.>
20:12 <@Mole> any opens?
20:13 <@Fuinelen> ahh .. something forgot to say
20:13 < Razaekel> i believe possum was going to have something to say about the player motivations?
20:13 <@Fuinelen> If you have any complaints or just want to be rude : Faithless is the man you want to talk to :P
20:13 <@Mole> hmmm...
20:13 <@Emeraven> hmmm opens
20:13 <@Maddeva> lol
20:13 <@faithless> Screw you. >.<
20:14 <@Mole> any other opens? real opens?
20:14 * Emeraven tries to shake his just woken up mind
20:14 <@Emeraven> yes
20:14 <@Mole> k
20:14 < Possum> sec please
20:14 * Possum shakes redr
20:14 < bird> Mole, is this project gonna be P2P ? :p
20:14 < RedR> hum? sorry was elsewhere ;)
20:14 <@silmaril> pay to program?
20:14 <@Emeraven> hmmm answer that first..
20:14 <@Mole> bird, that will be defined in the requirements
20:15 < bird> okey
20:15 < bird> pay to play silly goose ;)
20:15 <@Fuinelen> Bird, but don't hold your breath .. there are many issues with P2P related to cheating and exploiting
20:15 <@Mikhail_> pay to play fuin...
20:16 <@Lucky_Luciano> Not peer to peer :)
20:16 <@Mikhail_> not pear to pear
20:16 <@Mole> possum? eme?
20:16 <@Mole> opens?
20:16 <@Fuinelen> aeh .. sorry .. misread
20:16 < RedR> First, let me intro.. I help run another IRC server for Neverwinter Connections site...
20:16 < bird> lol
20:16 < bird> cause if its not gonna be pay to play.. how the hell are you gonna keep the servers up ?:p
20:17 <@Fuinelen> Bird, need to be discussed, but there are other ways
20:17 <@Mikhail_> bird, we have different options we are working on, we cant worry about paying for servers, until we have something to put on them
20:17 <@Mole> go ahead RedR
20:17 < bird> okeydo, thanks ^^
20:17 < RedR> what caught my interest was your group and its current project through Possum
20:17 < RedR> our IRC server has a few groups doing simular interest projects as well
20:18 <@Emeraven> heh Ill wait till after reds done
20:18 < RedR> not so much MMORPG, vs custom content, tool development, and possibly game engines in the future
20:19 < RedR> seeing how things are just getting fired up on this project, I wanted to make a pitch on moving the group to our IRC server
20:19 <@Mikhail_> basicly i have a few questions, 1. what kind of up time do you guys have? how about your chan and nick servers?
20:19 < RedR> because we are a smaller network (currently running two servers on two seperate T3's)
20:20 < RedR> we have full nameserv and chanserv services
20:20 <@Mikhail_> whats the uptime?
20:20 < RedR> we also offer hosting/running House of Commons (HoC) chats with the groups who are interested in such events
20:20 <@Mikhail_> how does that work? is that like a moderated chat?
20:21 < RedR> uptime, let me see I'll report back to you. Tho off hand our only burps are due to selective updates to our IRCd
20:21 * silmaril suggests to move the discussion of this to the forums as well
20:21 * Mikhail_ disagrees
20:21 <@silmaril> m'kay
20:21 < RedR> yes Mikhail, typically I host, passing questions to the guest, they answer in moderated chat often going open floor at the end
20:22 <@Mikhail_> and how is that different from one of us doing that here?
20:22 < RedR> none at all
20:22 -!- Minthosafk is now known as Minthos
20:22 <@Emeraven> they are known for it
20:22 -!- Luci|Dinner is now known as Luciole
20:22 <@Mikhail_> what I really want to know is, what makes your network better than what we have here? so the uptime is important, we are already established here
20:22 < RedR> its just we have folks who have done it for awhile, and that can take the weight off your staff from running it
20:23 <@Emeraven> possibly a larger audience
20:23 < RedR> thus they can just answer the question, and focus on the event instead
20:23 < RedR> our uptime atm is 110 days
20:23 <@Lucky_Luciano> Mikhail, in a HoC, people ask questions to the hosts and the hosts post the questions in a read-only thread for the devs to answer
20:23 < RedR> we've been running the IRCd for over two years now
20:23 <@Emeraven> I think you bet socery right there
20:24 <@Lucky_Luciano> MR did several HoC's on Stratics
20:24 < RedR> and the site that owns the IRCd has some big plans on increasing the scope of the site over all to cover more RPG games than just NWN
20:24 <@Mikhail_> Lucky, its nothing we cant do here
20:24 < Jerky> A lot of dev teams do
20:24 < RedR> yes, I've helped with HoC's on stratics as well a couple years ago
20:24 <@Lucky_Luciano> I know, it's just a moderated chat basicly :)
20:25 <@strangerr> well we did a HoC last time and it worked well :)
20:25 < RedR> we can also offer more adminstrative support for IRC than any other IRC network
20:25 < RedR> though to me, the biggest benny to you is the groups who use our IRC
20:26 < RedR> sharing idea's, tool knowledge, and future planning for products and support
20:26 <@Mikhail_> ok, could you post the particulars of the features that you offer, and advantages over this network, and some good reasons for moving please.
20:26 <@strangerr> on the forums
20:26 < RedR> sure, be glad to
20:26 <@Mikhail_> thank you
20:26 <@strangerr> ;]
20:26 <@Mole> ok.
20:26 <@Mole> any other opens?
20:26 <@Mole> eme?
20:27 < RedR> thanks for the time yall
20:27 <@Mikhail_> one thing on the irc, what we would be more interested is our own irc server
20:27 <@Emeraven> ok
20:27 <@Emeraven> just a short thing
20:27 -!- faithless
20:27 -!- faithless has joined #projectwish
20:28 < bird> wb faith
20:28 -!- Dwilf has joined #projectwish
20:28 <@Emeraven> Im pretty impressed with the ideas that have been comming our way, I think me and my team have been discussing many threads on the ideas forum
20:28 * Mouglue keeps searching for his lost shaker of salt.
20:28 <@Emeraven> I just wanted to encourage people to post their ideas, we may even have a separate forum for this, but at the moment the ideas forum works
20:29 < Possum> i hope we won't lose sight of the many good ideas that are already posted
20:29 <@Emeraven> and yes, although opinions are valid, I would rather see ideas, than your opinion on the others ideas :)
20:29 < Possum> maybe it would be worth summarizing what's there
20:29 * Emeraven nods
20:29 < Jerky> good point :)
20:30 < bird> i gotta agree with raven... my concept idea's rocked ;)
20:30 < Jerky> lol
20:30 <@Mole> any other opens?
20:30 * Emeraven laughs
20:31 <@Mole> going once
20:31 <@Mole> going twice
20:31 <@Emeraven> sold to the main in the mole suit
20:31 <@Emeraven> man*
20:31 <@strangerr> wrrr Emeraven you stole my line!
20:31 <@Maddeva> who's turn is it to make the tea?
20:31 <@Mole> ok. done
20:31 <@Mole> meeting is over.
20:31 <@Mole> thanks everyone

[emeraven]

This is great, can we make this public please?

[silmaril]

It is :p

This is the public forum in the development area.

[emeraven]

ah my mistake, I should visit more :D