Skill System Options

[glibdud]

Is there a discussion of a skills system somewhere? I don't see a Skills Requirements thread or anything similar.

[Pandra]

Is there a discussion of a skills system somewhere? I don't see a Skills Requirements thread or anything similar.

I think there are several diffrent threads started on spacific skills people are interested in like cooking, trading, crafting, and some that lightly touch on character skills but I don't think there's a spacific thread dedicated to it yet.

[glibdud]

Well I'll throw my ideas for a general skills system in here, and copy it over if an official thread is made.

Skills Hierarchy
I think one way to make skills more dynamic and realistic is to arrange them hierarchically into a sort of tree arrangement. The roots of the trees would consist of what would traditionally be called "stats" or "attributes". From those, very general classes of skills can split off. From those, slightly more specific skills can be split off. And so on. Here's a simple example of one branch of the skills tree:

• Body
  • Upper Body Strength
    • Blacksmithing
      • Armorcrafting
      • Weaponcrafting
    • Swordsmanship
  • Lower Body Strength
    • Forcing Barriers
    • Kicking

Now, imagine that you craft a sword. Doing so would "exercise" your Weaponcrafting skill, increasing your experience in it. But then it also exercises your Blacksmithing skill, providing a smaller increase to that. In this way, the experience trickles all the way down to the root of the tree, providing a smaller bonus for each level it traverses.

When skill checks are made, the same sort of process is followed. The next time you make a sword, its quality is affected by your skill. That skill will consist of your actual Weaponcrafting skill, as well as, to a smaller extent, your general Blacksmithing skill, Upper Body Strength, and Body (each level having progressively less influence).

What such a system does, then, is tie skills together in a realistic way. That sword you crafted provided you with valuable knowledge about crafting more swords. But you also learned more about metalworking in general, which will also help in smithing other items. It also worked your upper body, providing you with a little more oomph the next time you swing a sword.

Where it can get real complex is when skills apply to more than one branch. The system can deal with this just fine, but it makes the tree into more of a mesh that isn't as easy to read. But then again, the game design for which I wrote this system was aimed at hiding most of the mechanics from the players. If you can make it intuitive enough, there's no reason the players need to see the tree at all.

I imagine the biggest roadblock for this system would be on the technical side. Every skill check requires a number of calculations to be done on the server, which could potentially turn into quite a load. But I don't have enough experience in such matters to really be able to tell how bad it would be.

This post has been edited by glibdud: Mar 31 2007, 03:51 PM

[jaminben]

I like that idea glibdud, and it seems to be in the spirit of PW. It makes sense and is somewhat realistic.

[Exudos]

I'd like to throw my two cents here, appropriate or not . Anyway, I think that the ability to shape the games towns and cities would be nice. An ingame little building design toolkit could create a demand for a new kind of crafter, one who actually uses real life skills to design houses and buildings, at a cost with resource costs as well of course. This would be realistic, much like in real life. If you did this, the game could also start out with just a bunch of tribes wandering around for good spots to make cities. Some would flourish, some would become guilds, some might become little religious outposts, some could become military bases... This building customization would pretty much open up the ultimate in roleplaying customization. Your character could have a job assigned to him by other players, be in the army, have an established trade buisness... This would also open things up for pirates, just really make the game completely customizable. SecondLife did much the same thing, and it developed into a rich and diverse place. Because every builder has their own flourish, it could create some of the most spectacular buildings any game has seen, even "caves" that are actually player made fortresses! (my personal fantasy right there, a guild of assassins living in a fortress cave ) Characters should also start out and gain levels based on what they do, not by classes. I much agree with Glibdud on the skill tree issue as well, it is very much in the way an MMO should be, although extensive with formulas. I have some, or alot, of experience with C++, and it should be doable however. I'm a bit rusty, otherwise I would sign up as a programmer , but that's away from the point. In conclusion, I think that player made buildings would make for a developing culture and unique and diverse cities. It would influence the game mechanics, create wars, just make for a bloody fun game. I'm not saying it should be easy to make a house or city, but it should be fun.

[glibdud]

My previous post was moved from another thread before I saw this one, so it may not appear to fit the context. A few more comments on what I've read here:

I'm in favor of hiding as much as possible of the numbers behind the scene from the players. I disagree with the sentiment that "It's going to get figured out anyway, so why bother hiding it." For a simplistic system (e.g. WoW), that may be true. But a more complex and realistic system could be designed such that the players never really know exactly what's happening behind the scenes. They'll figure out the tendencies, sure, but there'll always be enough doubt in the system that people will be motivated to try to find a better way.

The argument that "People like to see discrete improvements" is valid, but I'm of the opinion that in a well-designed system, you'll be able to take that away without most of the players even noticing. That relies a lot on keeping the players interested in the actual content.

I'm also opposed to an artificial skill cap. I think skill decay can take care of making sure players can't master everything at once.

And since I'm feeling contrary today, I'll go ahead and disagree with one more thing. I really don't like the idea of letting characters change their skill build on a whim. Characters should have a real identity, and if I meet Bob the Legendary Warrior today, it would really be silly to see him hurling fireballs but unable to lift a sword tomorrow. If you want players to be able to switch identities, let them make multiple characters.

[Dwilf]

I have to say that I agree with Glibdud's last paragraph completely, and that his previous post with the skill system with synergy and feedback/forward is very close to how the skill system forming in my head works.

I also want most of the mechanics hidden with just things your character could see/know displayed as info in the UI.

I'm in favor of skill decay but would prefer to see time limited lifespans for charcacters and a permadeath system so we don't need skill decay or a cap. I know this will be unpopular with some/many gamers but I stick to my view that a dynamic game world (RP heavy or not) needs a dynamic character population and this requires PCs to die and not come back at some point.

[glibdud]

I'm in favor of skill decay but would prefer to see time limited lifespans for charcacters and a permadeath system so we don't need skill decay or a cap. I know this will be unpopular with some/many gamers but I stick to my view that a dynamic game world (RP heavy or not) needs a dynamic character population and this requires PCs to die and not come back at some point.

I should probably spend more time thinking about permadeath systems and deciding if I could come to live with one. I've always been against it. The biggest problem I see is that if life expectancy is too short, it'll be difficult to get into a character. But if it's too long, players will feel like they're losing something they worked hard to achieve.

On the other hand, it does make skill limits a much simpler subject. And it would probably reduce the desire to grind, since people lose the "I'll put in the work now so I that I never have to do it again" mentality. (Although... I suppose it could be said to encourage grinding, in the mindset that you don't have time to wait around and let your skills slowly build up. That's an interesting one.) Plus it's just a while different dynamic, which PW seems to be all about.

To be clear, are you suggesting combat permadeath, or just old age?

Perhaps a half-way system where a character doesn't actually die, but simply retires? He's no longer any good for combat or spellcasting, but can still hang around at least for socializing (and maybe introduce some sort of teaching/training system).

[Maxwell]

I like the teaching/training system. I think there is a thread somewhere about that. Though this kind of "forces" players to be that teacher after a certain time, some people may not like this though. People hate being "forced" to do things in games. Maybe we need a gentel hand to push them along that way, make it seem like it's there decision.

[Dwilf]

To be clear; yes, I'm suggesting combat permadeath as well as some form of old age.

I'd also put in some system so the players don't have to start right from scratch when a charcter dies. I was thinking recently of a changable pool of points to spend at character creation. Doing well, taking part in live events/quests and RPing would lead to your account having more points to spent on future characters. Players who mess about and break the rules (griefing and other undesirable stuff) would have thier point pool reduced by the devs thus they are "gimping" their future characters.

[Maxwell]

Nice setup, so why couldn't we just have a death system with heirs. I am not saying you need to have an NPC family and when you die one of you kids take over, but its more or less like you start off a lower level than your "father," but now your not starting at zero. It's the same basic concept as dwilfs, its just with a story twist.

This post has been edited by Maxwell: Apr 4 2007, 11:10 AM

[glibdud]

Nice setup, so why couldn't we just have a death system with heirs. I am not saying you need to have an NPC family and when you die one of you kids take over, but its more or less like you start off a lower level than your "father," but now your not starting at zero. It's the same basic concept as dwilfs, its just with a story twist.

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too. I think there's a MUD that does that... full-time PvP with permadeath, with some/all of a dead character's money/possessions passing to his next character as an heir.

I dunno, I'm still a bit skeptical. I'm all for severe death penalties, but I'm not quite sure I can go that severe.

For one thing, I envision an environment where explorers are always in danger of being stalked and gutted by a hungry tiger. Be kinda harsh for their whole career to be over in a flash like that.

Also, let's not forget that the internet isn't perfect. Can you imagine how much it would suck if your internet connection dropped in the middle of a battle, leaving your character defenseless? (And how much it would be exploited if we allowed the character to immediately disappear?)

[Dwilf]

Maybe having your next character as an heir to the last one could be an option to spend a some points on as long as they are the same race. But if your last charcter was a human mage type who liked sewing on the weekend but your next character is a gnomish Troll Hunter who makes his own acid injecting crossbow bolts, And humans and gnomes are at war in the game?

I know there will be hurdles aplenty to implement a "fun" combat triggered permadeath system; but I think the way such a danger would impact the way you play your characters would be worth any headaches caused designing it.

[Minthos]

Mourning (dead mmorpg project) planned to have bloodlines and limited character lifespan. Might be worth digging up some of their ideas for recycling.

[Exudos]

Ahhh, I see how it could work, the perma death.
You only get one character at a time, who shares a soul with their decendants, as in, you die, you make a new character, you start out a little stronger, wiser, with memories of your past lives to guide you along, maybe you gain experience faster depending on the levels of your past lives, who knows. You could pray at alters to certain gods to extend your life, and could use them to gain more power from your past lives. Just an idea.

[Jerky]

Thats a good brief summary of the idea. That gets the main parts of it. There are lots of finer details that could be done, but most people see that word and are scared away. There are many who would not even try a game if permadeath were envolved.

To be clear, I am not putting any opinion in those comments at all. I would love to explore the idea more.

[glibdud]

Thats a good brief summary of the idea. That gets the main parts of it. There are lots of finer details that could be done, but most people see that word and are scared away. There are many who would not even try a game if permadeath were envolved.

To be clear, I am not putting any opinion in those comments at all. I would love to explore the idea more.

Yeah, it's worth discussing when the time comes. It would probably have to be one of the first things decided on... it would affect the balance of a lot of systems.

[Bent Coin]

Hi all. I recently joined the forums, and enjoyed your discussions. I found the discussion on perma death very interesting. As an old school MMORPG player I know that would scare me away from your game.
Players work hard to build their characters, and perma death seems like a huge waste of effort even with other characters inheriting some some skills , valuables etc.
As a player I would want to have a say in such a major decision. Now I can see a character dieing permanently lets say in a GM run event if the player consents to it prior, and say you work out some type of a deal, maybe a memorial, shrine etc to that player.
Another way would be to run events with great rewards, but also great penalties. Let the players know that this is a perma death event, that way the players have an option to participate or not. I can assure you there will be participants if the rewards are worth the risk.
Just my opinion.

[Maxwell]

I like that Idea, but what is something a player is going to risk their life for? Maybe a legacy. I don't know, personally I hated perma-death, but now it has kind of grown on me. I see more people being a tad bit more careful, instead of fighting and knowing you will come back, you will do everything in your power to stay alive. I would be interesting to see who would stand there ground and who would run.

I personally don't think that it would be fair to lose all of your skill and possessions, but I believe it will be enough that you would be worried about being killed. If you think about it's very much like non perma-death you will die but you come back as another character and you will have lost some skill and some possessions, as I think about it the line between perma-death and respawning at a bind stone, is very faded.

[Honis]

back to the subject of player skill degrigation.

Why not have a skill called "Fatty" (working name). The longer you idle (in and out of game) the higher this skill becomes. It basically works agaist any skill that requires activity (sword fighting, arrow shooting, spell casting, etc.) The higher the skill the slower and weaker you become. The skill points can be worked off when your active (running, figting, etc). I suggest this because most people will not like seeing a hard earned set of skills disappear.

A draw back I see is that it can be exploited rather easily. If the game has auto-run then someone can point the charater in some direction hit the run button and go take a nap (if they aren' afraid of dieing) (the boot method can also be used if auto-run gets disabled somehow). Perma-death would scare most people away from doing this, but I'm not an advicator for the p-word If certain things aren't designed into the game, they could just keep running into a corner. If people are afraid of dieing and there is an auto-fallow, a new job may be made, Personal Trainer. This is an exploit because people can auto fallow someone and that someone does laps around the city while everyone fallowing who has a fallowing character is off doing something else.

I don't know how the exploits can get skirted, but I'd really hate to see my actual skill points degrigate just because I can't log in everyday.