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> PnC vs WASD
Hawkins
post Jan 17 2005, 09:40 PM
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I would like to talk about how PnC affects game world design.

WASD here means the way how you control your char's movement in games like EQII and WoW, while PnC i am talking about is that employed by Lineage II.

The advantage of PnC is that you can have a third-person full camera view to see how everything happening around your char, you wont get backstabed like in WoW. While WASD is just an extended 1st person view where you can normally only see the *back* of your char (like in WoW that is), the shortcoming is that you dont know what's happening at your back, i think open pvp will be affected the most as you dont know what's happening at your back, which becomes your weakest postition for an ambush/backstab.

As the main advantage of PnC is that it allows you to have broader camera view, so if PnC is to be adapted, the UI must be so designed that you can freely and smoothly move your camera view, LineageII is an awesome design in this aspect.

On the other hand, the freely adjustable camera view will become a shortcoming in a narrow environment such as in dungeons and small houses. This is because you can hardly obtain the best camera view for the human eyes perception. WASD doesn't have the same problem because it's an extended 1st person view where your camera's viewing angle is limited (ie. you can only see your back when you move).

In Lineage II, the problem is "fixed" by designing all the dungeons as *big halls* and no *small* houses are present. All the shopes are with a certain *size* to allow you to get the acceptable camera view suitable for the human eye perception.

Wish tries to use the path-finding feature to partly cover the shortcoming up. That is, whenever you are in a narrow tower or house, you can make use of the path-finding to move your char instead of adjusting the camera view to get a proper viewing angle to see and control your char's movement.

What's been affected that most is house decoration, no matter it's PnC or WASD you cant have a proper camera view for house decoration, unless you have a *big enough* house in the case of PnC. You can hardly get it right in case of WASD. I think this is one of the reaon why housing is simply ignored in 3D MMORPGs (i dont have a chance to see how good the camera works in SWG yet).

A workaround I can think of for house decoration is that there will be a button "decorate" which can be accessed by a player when he's inside his own house, when the button is pressed, his house contents are moved to an instance where the camera is locked with a view exactly like in UO (the isometric view? i forgot the name), and the player can only view one floor at a time (this affects how a 3D house is modeled, i dont know how easy or difficult this is done). While the house with its contents can rotate along the y-axis (z-axis in UO).

Personally I think if PnC is used in PW, I prefer to see the UI and movement control exactly like LineageII instead of Wish.
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Hanayo
post Jan 27 2005, 09:29 AM
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there is another difference between PnC and WASD:

- WASD is a sequence of many commands which is hard to handle by the servers if there are hundrets or thousands of players.

- and PnC is a single or only a few commands for a complex action/movement/.. which is easy to handle..

and thats the reason why the original Wish was PnC only.
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Chris
post Jan 27 2005, 10:00 AM
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Actually I would enjoy having a combination of PnC and WASD. In large outdoor areas, I absolutely love PnC, because it allows me to scan my surroundings, type chat messages, manipulate my inventory etc. without having to micro-manage my movement. In confined quarters like houses I prefer more precise control over my movement, and would rather switch to 1st-person WASD controls.
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Melanthe
post Jan 27 2005, 01:18 PM
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Thank you for that post, Hawkins. Very very informative analysis of how perception of the world interacts with the camera view in various situations.

I too found Wish PnC to be both workable and enjoyable in outdoor situations, giving a nice perception of the landscape and reasonably controlled movement (except in one case which which i'll mention in a moment) but really frustrating and annoying in closed spaces where you'd have this sense you were too big for the room, and weird camera views that made sudden jerky changes when your camera swung by something close.

The one case where I never got the hang of PnC outside was my (pathetic) attempt at archery. Because the target would always turn and run toward me as soon as it was attacked, and I was not allowed to fire if it was too close, I had to turn and run. This meant turning my back on my target, and having no clue where it was as i tried to get enuf distance between me and the target to stop, turn and fire.

I never managed to do it. Maybe I would have figured it out, or maybe there was some trick to it that I didn't know, but it was impossible to stop, turn and fire efficiently with PnC from my experience.


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Jerky
post Jan 27 2005, 03:59 PM
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Lasastard
post Jan 28 2005, 04:40 AM
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I personally prefer WASD. Reason?
It gives me a more and direct control of my movements. With PnC you give a target and from that on until your character reaches this target you are more or less out of control. Sure, you can click again and move to another target. However, in combat situations I found WASD way more comfortable in 3rd person perspective - in combination with mouse-targetselection of course.
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sblmnl
post Jan 28 2005, 12:22 PM
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I don't know what the technical term for it is, but UO uses a "follow-the-mouse" form of movement - to move you simply hold down the right mouse button (can be re-assigned to other buttons I think) and point. As soon as you stop holding down the button, your character stops.

This method not only largely avoids the WASD vs P&C argument, it's very intuitive to use as it is so simple and gives quite precise movement control using only one hand and with very little practice. Turning around was one of the most difficult manouvres in Wish requiring a minimum 4 clicks and then some camera swivelling to try and get your orientation right... with "follow-the mouse" you simply move the mouse pointer and your character follows. UO has a fixed isometric view so it's true camera movement is not an issue it needs to deal with - but as far as I can see there's no reason eliminating the "click" part of P&C should mean the camera can't move with you.

Other games combine this with say, holding down CRTL when you want to jump, or tab or arrow keys to make a stationary character face in other directions - something Wish really needed I think. How many times were you stupidly left with your back to the Wish npc/player you were talking to and unable to do anything about it without running half-way across the screen?

Most importantly, there is NO clicking in order to move - a design aspect I would really like to see incorporated into PW. The amount of clicking Wish required, not just for movement but for crafting interfaces etc was a real problem for anyone lacking full manual function, and in my opinion also likely to give rise to repetitive strain injury, and is something we should take care not to repeat.

Also the confusion between clicking a target and clicking a location could be avoided using this method, as you only use clicks for targeting. In Wish trying to attack with my archer could be an extremely frustrating experience. I'd position her at the correct range, carefully select the appropriate bow, then try and target the mob that was planning on making a snack of her - and she'd immediately start running *towards* it. Doh.
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Chris
post Jan 28 2005, 12:30 PM
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What I like about PnC is that you can simply select a target position and then you are free to do other things while movement is automatic. Having to keep the mouse cursor pointed to where I want to go (and keep the button pressed) would negate that advantage, as I would still have to pay attention to movement all the time.
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Slacter
post Jan 28 2005, 01:08 PM
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The advantages of PnC: Hundred-fold less server traffic than WASD, better automated control, other clients see your movements more accurately, action response is controlled by roll calculations and puts everyone on an even plane, thus allowing all characters with the same skill experience to have the same chance of success.

The advantages of WASD: More character control, better control in tight spots, action response is controlled more by the player's skill to manipulate the keyboard, thus allowing individual player abilities to determine uberness.

Is it possible to hybrid these together? They could use the same messages, just that WASD would give short distance PnC commands (i.e. like auto-run while the key is pressed, thereby only sending a server message when a new key is pressed or when a key is released).
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kru
post Jan 28 2005, 02:12 PM
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Shadowbane had (when I played it) one of the best interfaces in a mmog. Its a great design. This includes the way that it handles movement. The viewing area is controlled by the keyboard, and the mouse is used to initiate movement. Pathfinding was optional, and I preferred to keep it off. When moving into buildings the objects that would block your view of the ground were shadowed, and removed. The picking routine was very 'smart'. I forget exactly how it worked, but I never had a problem targetting what I wanted to target.

Thats all just the camera and character movement stuff. SB's interface was had lots more great stuff, too. Anything could be moved, easily, or turned into button by unskilled users. Any button could be created and placed anywhere on the screen. Its a real gem of an interface. WoWs interface, as user-friendly as it is, is disappointing in comparison.

Any UI designer for wish should get some familiarity with the Shadowbane interface.
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Zhiroc
post Feb 17 2005, 11:27 AM
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Something I posted on a different Wish board:

IMHO, just about all games are missing the point when it comes to movement. First of all, I think there has to be a distinction made in whether an MMO is trying to be more of a FPS action game than an RPG. In an RPG, you shouldn't need to concentrate so much on micro-tactics like positioning oneself. In this, neither WASD nor PnC really have it right.

For example, as a seasoned warrior, I should just "know" that I should manuever to attack an opponent's flank, so that's what my character should do--automatically. Likewise, the opponent should know that this is bad, so they should move to counter--also automatically. Of course, the player should be able to make overriding decisions, but the point is that precise movement shouldn't be necessary in most cases. And if my character is a crafter that never leaves the house, I don't care how much *I* know about how to position myself for combat--my character doesn't so it doesn't manuever well at all.

Likewise with going from city A to city B. If there's a road or a path, or even just a general direction, I should just be able to set out that way, and the character should follow the twists and turns, and avoid obstacles. If the character notices something (and it shouldn't rely on me the player noticing by seeing something on radar or the view), then it should bring it to my attention. If the terrain is confusing, the character should have a chance of getting lost that doesn't matter how well the player knows the terrain (or has OOC knowledge of position).

Again the question, is the game an FPS or an RPG?

If you've played pen-and-paper RPGs, this is *so* natural and isn't at all radical in concept. I don't tell the GM "I walk straight to the bend in the road, turn around 180 degrees, do I see something? OK, I turn 60 deg to the left, walk another 100 feet, and look around...." If I do tell the GM that I'm looking around, it's for a specific reason, and yes, it would enhance my character's perception (at a loss of movement speed, mind you).

I'm beta-testing a WASD movement system game (with no waypoints/bookmarks), and I *hate* it. I can't see how any socialization will take place except when just standing around, since you're jamming keys to move and therefore can't chat. And adding a 3rd party app like Teamspeak to me just proves how broken the model is, at least for an RPG.
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Blacksmile
post Feb 24 2005, 10:23 AM
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Although this might be really hard to implement i absolutely like the idea of Zhiroc. On the other side i think the people want some control over their character, no matter if that fits the role of the character or not. So there should be a way to choose whether to let the character navigate or to navigate on ones own.

For short distance navigation I think spatial effects like backstabbing should only be possible if the character is likely to know about them, maybe has aquired a skill to do so. And if the character does know it should (when this system is to be implemented) move around the target for backstabbing it automatically, unless manually overriden.

For mid-distanced navigation (within visibility) i see no need (if we were going for PnC) to differ between char navigation and player navigation. If we are going to have WASD (wich in my eyes has some major technical drawbacks) then char navigation of course needed to be done through PnC...

For long-distance navigation i think the proposed model of the character beeing likely to get lost in unknown territory is cool, but it could lead to serious frustration if you end up in an area lurked by some strong monsters. So i would rather give the player the choice between letting the character find it's way or navigating himself (maybe hindered through the minimap beeing depandant on the characters cartographic or orientation skill.
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Masamune
post Apr 7 2005, 02:19 PM
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I think I read on the old Wish forums where somebody did a packet count test on PNC vs WASD commands and found that the WASD commands were actually a bit smaller. According to that post there was no reason from a network standpoint why WASD couldn't have been used either instead, or along side (which was an interesting idea I hadn't thought of) of PNC. I watched the forum and never saw where any member of the Wish team replied to that, they just always said it was PNC or the highway (which I understand if your that close to releasing a product you want to tweak not make major changes....) Obviously the server side code plays a large part in this, of which I plainly have no knowledge, but maybe it would be possible both could be done?

For the record, I am a large fan of Morrowind's WASD interface, I think Bethesda did an excellent job with it. I also like UO's simple mouse interface, providing you turn pathfinding off! Wish's PNC was getting better with each update, but had a lot of work left before it was ready for prime time, especially with the whirl and hurl camera. But after playing with it, (frustrating learning curve), I can see where it would have been quite serviceable with more refining.


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Phoenix
post Apr 7 2005, 02:50 PM
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personally i like WASD or arrow keys, PnC reminds me of runescape(its easy to click on players in a crowded area which is anoying as it slows you down) WASD has always been more fun for me, easier to use less incidents.
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silmaril
post Apr 7 2005, 03:20 PM
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It is possible, but I seriously doubt it.

For WASD you need to send a direction everytime you change directions (including "no direction" to stop). For PnC you send the coordinates you want to go to and the server returns the route to get you there. This can also be optimized to perform the same calculation client side as well and just check if they are the same, only sending the information from the server if they are not.

Another problem is that of latency. With WASD you need to continously send information about your movement, and the server must continously check if the moves are legal. Even with rather low latency on the connection the server and client can disagree on where a character is and cause the well-known rubber-band effect. Additional checks can be put in place to solve it to some degree though. With PnC you transmit one request to go to a location and get one response (each in one packet), instead of a continous stream of packets for movement.
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Masamune
post Apr 7 2005, 07:23 PM
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That makes sense. I guess the size isn't important afterall, just how it's used :) Seriously, thanks for the explanation. I was sure there was something more complicated involved.


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babocan
post Apr 17 2005, 06:14 PM
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Sorry if my reply is redundant... there were too many posts/words to take in during one sitting...

Point and Click can badly interfere with "tense" situations if using a graphical interface (that is why WoW has things like a Tool Bar "LOCK" button - so you don't accidentally drag an action icon off of the tool bar during combat, tryin' to do to many thing rapidly)... I.E. you are trying to click on a "stance" button placed on the side of the screen and you miss it causing your character, during battle, to walk that way, opening your side and flank to attack.

WASD can be difficult when trying to "chat", but with a walk/run toggle and "auto-move" feature (both in WoW), and multitasking a converstation while walking through the woods (hit enter mid sentence, adjust autowalk direction with WASD, hit enter and type rest of sentence), you can get along fairly well - this doesn't work well if you are not so very dexterous.

Automatic pathfinding can take the "exploration" factor out of it. BOTs are not good, IMHO, because they take the player involvement out of it. I want to be able to inch my way around a tree to spot the enemy before he sees me... maybe get off that crippling shot before he starts charging at me. At the same time, in some way your character resists you trying to drive him off a cliff that will kill him (although you didn't realize it was quite that tall) - I like the idea of some automatic character response to environment based on skills and traits - similar to when you goto attack something, your character automatically goes into a combat stance (graphically, and ?operationally?).

Now I have put so many words down as well... what we need is a Hybrid. The ability to put it into "auto-pilot" or direct drive... while utilizing a middle mouse button to control camera angle while using the WASD to control direction of travel. TOO MANY times have I caught myself holding down the scroll button on my mouse and try to pan across a web page, MS Word doc or other such file - too many hours running around a 3D MMORPG environment.

- just my opinions.


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Bomhammer
post May 2 2005, 10:33 PM
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I think it would be a good idea to take a look at the Star Wars Galaxies movment control.
For me it worked.

I could use the WASD control or I could i could configure it to control movement through mouse and the chat was availible on the fly as soon as you type words instead of pressing "enter" then putting the word in the chat box..


you could also give a choice of which system people they many want tp use or they can make their own control scheme based on the commands availible.

that is my 2 cents
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Abe
post May 3 2005, 02:29 PM
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I think I read on the old Wish forums where somebody did a packet count test on PNC vs WASD commands and found that the WASD commands were actually a bit smaller.


Yes, a fellow at the old WISH Vault also explained, in detail how WASD required no more commands and a bit smaller packets then PnC movement did.

I noticed myself when playing WISH that I only used PnC to move where I had to go to play the game. I never explored inside of buildings or up stairways as PnC was just to tiring to use when compared to the ease and control of WASD movement.

Another troubling item with PnC was combat. When trying to "click" a creature, missing and clicking the ground, then walking to that point instead of attacking. I was willing to try and live with PnC because WISH had so much to offer but WASD would have made the world so much more fun to interact with.
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Pashta
post May 4 2005, 09:24 AM
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I noticed myself when playing WISH that I only used PnC to move where I had to go to play the game. I never explored inside of buildings or up stairways as PnC was just to tiring to use when compared to the ease and control of WASD movement.



Were we playing the same Wish? It had the BEST EVER PnC controls.. I went up stairs and inside buildings with no problems at all. I was very impressed by it and still would prefer it to crappy WASD.

Anyway, as I keep saying, just let the PEOPLE choose, have BOTH options available. Stop trying for one or the other... would it really bother you folks that much that I prefer PnC and can use it if I want to? If so then that's pretty selfish, not to mention mean.


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