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PnC vs WASD |
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StaticGrazerr |
Jul 7 2005, 10:41 PM
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Veteran
Group: Members
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Joined: 10-February 05
From: Hot Springs Va
Member No.: 475
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Why is it that we cannot have a combination of the two systems? WASD and P&C? Is it too complicated?
Why is it that we cannot have it so that WASD is basic movement, moving the mouse is basic looking around, right clicking and holding could also be used for movement? A simple left click for attacking, and a simple right click for a weapons special attack ( Block, zoom for bows, charge for spells, things like that)
And as far as Small areas are concerned, why not offer a feature where Page Up and Page down dipict 1st Person or 3rd Person?
Now I liked UO's Omnnesant overview camera, however it probley wouldn't seem right with PW. Simply because you'd be missing a lot of the great terrain and beautiful building sides. How are we going to enjoy my nice tavern or pub if all I can see is the walls and floor? What about my chandaleer darnit!
Not only that, but the Onmnesant view ( as far as decoration goes) makes a kind of eye-trickary to objects around the player. What seems to be together is actuelly stacked, or turned in a specific way.
Games with a P&C normally ( or at least I think they do) Have a zoom feature on the keys above the arrow keys. And if they don't then by god they should! I personally prefer WASD above all others, but I'm a flexible gamer than can go with the flow.
And I'd like to see a combo system! Go Democracy! lolz
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May you have the hindsight to see where you've been, the foresight to see where you're going, and the insight to know when you've gone to far.
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emeraven |
Jul 10 2005, 04:29 PM
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Long Winded
Group: Members
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Joined: 11-January 05
Member No.: 8
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Exo is probably right about this, most people think of Point and Click or the arrow keys (WASD too) as about basic movement.
But SG has a point, a combination might be good, Im not sure about the mouse look. Ive tried a few mouse look on various games and I found it took a lot of co ordination (I dont have much :P), than having one or the other.
For a long time I was sold on PnC as I could just use one hand to do most things, and it helps that I have a rollerball mouse (I spin the ball to look around :P). But stopping and thinking about it, there are some things the basic WASD can do better, placing a character step by step is much easier with WASD, first person can be easier. Mind you in Wish I found first person point and click to be pretty good.
On the whole I would like to see something that was a little flexable, than just offering one or other solution.
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No longer on the project.
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mortideus |
Jan 22 2008, 10:31 PM
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PW Founder
Group: PW Developer
Posts: 85
Joined: 10-January 05
Member No.: 5
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QUOTE(Areena @ Jan 22 2008, 05:47 PM) another thing is that PnC requires i can't even imagine how much more lead time to deal with pathing and the likes
WISH actually used a PnC system called PathENGINE, which actually is a really easy to use system that takes all the work out of implementing the paths. It also created less load on the servers, allowing more players on a single server. I hated PnC until WISH did it, because it was never done correctly. At first, before I played WISH, I thought I would hate the PnC system, but after trying it, I was extremely glad they used PnC, just because I enjoyed the playstyle after getting used to it. I do agree though, that most of the players want a WASD system, and despite my extreme love for WISH, think the game should include it as the major movement style. Having PnC as a secondary movement style would be nice though, for those of us odd players.
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Mortideus Founder/*Old* Project Wish Leader
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Honis |
Feb 11 2008, 11:24 PM
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Veteran
Group: PW Developer
Posts: 156
Joined: 27-July 05
From: Southern IL
Member No.: 539
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I love FFXI's keyboard only system. I hardly ever get camera angle problems, typing messages is crazy easy and fast (which can be key when organizing things on the run), and with my wireless keyboard I can sit back relaxed (which is key to keeping players comfortable while playing [lead to longer play time?]). It has 2 modes, mini-keyboard mode for labtops and full keyboard mode. Mini is WASD + numpad arrows, full makes all of the letters go directly to chat. I run in mini mode with a full sized keyboard so I can switch off which hand I'm using to control direction (if I need more camera control WASD + arrow keys, In a party my left hand is pumping out macros and the right is camera and/or direction). Needing to be at a mousable surface for Wish and EQ2 was really fraking annoying, no matter how well the mouse interface was implemented. Square obviously put a lot of thought into the controls because of the limitations of the PS2 and made one of the best game interfaces in the process. [edit] could just require hardware to be bought: http://www.virtusphere.com/j/k
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Brotoi |
Mar 9 2008, 07:11 PM
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PW Story Team
Group: PW Developer
Posts: 151
Joined: 30-November 07
Member No.: 1,123
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Hmm. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to weigh in with my own experiences:
Pristontale: I used arrow keys for everything, tab key for targetting Lineage II: I used mouse for almost everything, function keys for spells/skills RF Online: I used arrow keys inside cities, mouse out in the wilderness CoH/CoV: I use arrow keys for movement, number keys for skills, numpad keys for special moves/combos, tab key for targetting, mouse for camera movement Guild Wars: I used the arrow keys for movement, mouse for targeting Dungeon Runners: I struggle with the movement system constantly. The camera control (or lack thereof) drives me batty. Wish: I used the mouse for movement, number keys for skills/actions/swapping tools
I have never found a WASD system that I could use well. My left hand is not coordinated enough. However, for character movement I find the arrow keys very comfortable, being able to adjust camera angle with the mouse is a bonus, especially if it stays oriented on the character direction. Lineage II's PnC mouse movement is also nice, but the Wish system (probably due to the pathing engine) often did unexpected things so I was not surprised at the number of players who hated it. On more than one occasion I would click on a distant terrain feature only to have my character suddenly turn around and run back the way she had just come from because the pathing engine decided some distant obstacle could not be overcome without backtracking. Just about the only time the pathing engine ever chose a straight line was over bridges.
Oh, using the spacebar to jump (esp. in CoH/CoV) is a lifesaver.
All in all, CoH/CoV has the most comfortable input system for me. It did take some getting used to, and once in awhile I still mix up the "Enter chat" function which makes my character do wacky things because I think I'm typing chat lines when I'm really typing commmands. All in all, though, the level of customization is superb, which means that my daily input system is now a combination of many different preferences developed from many different games:
Arrow keys are movement Mouse is camera movement (mouse keys for turning character/not turning character, scroll wheel for zoom) Number keys (keyboard top) fire off most common skills Alt+Number keys (keyboard top) fire off second tier skills Ctrl+Number keys (keyboard top) fire off seldom-used but necessary skills Numpad keys use keybinds to hold combo skills in proper sequence Alt+h toggles the user interface for perfect screenshots (a habit acquired in Lineage II) Alt+x exits the game (an old DOS standard for user software) Shift+function keys changes costume (would be used for changing weapons, armor, etc. in other games) F1-F5 handles "inspirations" (would be potions in other games) F6-F10 handles chat macros (Run!, Help!, personal battle cry, etc)
Some of these (like using number keys for skills) have pretty much become industry standards. Being able to use the F# keys for potions would enable a player to easily control both combat skills and potion usage with very little learning. Having a keybind system that supports complex customization schemes (and automatically remembers them when a player changes characters, logs in and out, etc.), would then allow the players to either keep our simple system, or adapt the user interface to whatever system they are comfortable with. Last but not least, a consistent tiered system for number key and function key control (1,Alt+1,Shift+1,Ctrl+1, F1, Alt+F1,Shift+F1,Ctrl+F1, etc.), especially if the system is easily customized, will solve almost any interface problem that crops up.
For a default system my personal preference would be:
Number keys for early skills, Alt+Number keys for additional skills, Ctrl+Number keys for later skills Shift+Number keys for changing weapons/armor/tools F1 to F10 keys for potions and emote animations Shift+F1 to F10 keys for chat macros and additional emote animations Tab for nearest enemy target Shift+Tab for nearest friendly target Ctrl+Tab for moving through available enemy targets (nearest ---> most distant) Alt+Tab for moving through available friendly targets (starting with team members nearest ---> farthest, then moving through other nearby friendlies) Spacebar for jumping/climbing
This system would be easy to learn, easy to use, and if it were supported by allowing advanced players to rebind any key to any skill/item/function they like, then it would also be endlessly customizable.
In my opinion the worst possible design would be the one most common in the industry: using 1-0 (or F1 to F10) for two or three basic skills, two or three basic emotes (stand/sit, walk/run, fight/flee), and two or three potions all at the same time with very little flexibility as the player advances through the game.
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StaticGrazer |
Jul 14 2008, 02:57 PM
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Newbie
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Joined: 11-January 05
Member No.: 112
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More options is probley going to be best.
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*dodges*
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