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Magic in Project Wish |
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GageEndal |
Oct 17 2006, 06:57 PM
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This is my idea of how magic should work in the game, please throw in your own also so we can get an actual debate going on for this. There is a lot of thought to be put into magic since it can do so much in the game.
I feel that magic should be split up into three methods of casting:
Mana Reagents Mana and Reagents
Mana is for straight sorcerers who have just such a high ammount of mystical energies that they don't rely on reagents to cast a spell. The cost of this would be about 2x mana cost as it would be if you were casting with Mana / Reagents.
Reagents are a form of casting that would be slower than straight mana casting because it takes longer to get together. Any time someone uses reagents it would slow them down (even at a higher level, there may be a bit of a modification to this, but for now let's just say they stay static fo time). The time frame would be also about 1.5x time as it would be with just mana. Anyone can use this style (even stupid warriors)
Mana and Reagents would be used for general spell casters. Ones who are able to use mana, but not well enough that they can cast spells without the reagents. The Reagents shouldn't be things that are impossible to find either, there should be at least one magic shop in each town that will sell all of the reagents. I also don't think that we should have hundreds of types of reagents since that just makes casting spells difficult. Anyhow... heh. This is the best method for those who are still learning and I think it would work fine. The time is still the 1.5x that just using Reagents is, but you can skip a certain amount of reagents if needed. Perhaps even having the reagents be liquids and you can use less of them if you are casting with mana to back it (putting your own energies into the spell as well as the reagents).
Well, that's my idea, it's a bit mixed up but I just wrote it out as I thought it, so that's to be expected.
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"I am suddenly more and more glad that I am a big stupid warrior." - Daniel Nicolai - 2006-10-18
"but other times I want to don a feathered cap and go prancing down the byways in pretty purple tights" - Daniel Nicolai - 2006-09-20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Nicolai
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GageEndal |
Oct 18 2006, 09:10 AM
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Well yeah, Pandra came up with some great ideas for Reagents, but I'm not talking about what we need to make it happen, that's similar, but a totally different path. What my post is about is different ways to actually cast a spell.
I think that there should be ways to cast without even touching a reagent, it's something I thought of while I was watching Merlin the other day with the wife. The whole idea was that there are three stages of becoming a true wizard.
Incantation (or reagents in our case) which is the slowest and sloppiest. Hand Gestures (reagents / mana) which is faster, but still sloppy. Pure Thought (mana) being the fastest and most powerful.
Don't get me wrong, I had gotten the idea of my post from reading Pandra's post, I just think that hers is more interested in seeing what kind of reagents would be needed and what kind of spells we should be casting. I personally hate reagents, which is my true reason for posting something like this that would make it so we can just not use them (eg).
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"I am suddenly more and more glad that I am a big stupid warrior." - Daniel Nicolai - 2006-10-18
"but other times I want to don a feathered cap and go prancing down the byways in pretty purple tights" - Daniel Nicolai - 2006-09-20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Nicolai
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GageEndal |
Oct 18 2006, 09:39 AM
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<jerky> One of the huge reasons for reagents it he economy, so if you can account for that somewhere, you may be onto something.
The thing to remember about the reagents is that they aren't the idea of the merchants who sell them. They are the discovery of the mages who have learned through trial and error which reagents will cause which effect. Because of this, the merchants are only putting these items out for suply and demand.
Now naturaly, magic is a realm of unknown discovery. And what is to say that a mage would not be able to get past the boundries of reagents and learn to cast a spell without them. I know that the economy of the land is important, but you also have to remember that they have young mages, rangers, rogues, thieves, warriors, knights, paladins and many others who will be buying these reagents because they just don't have the power to cast a spell without them. Some may be able to tap into their mana and use less of them, but on the whole anyone who wishes to cast a spell will be using reagents at one point in their life.
These mages who are above it are also paying a large price of the extra mana. Most will not use this because of this mana price and will stick to the reagent / mana style. But what happens when you are fighting that gryphon and you run out of mandrake roots? Do you run for your short life or do you summon the power to finish your spell without the stuff?
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"I am suddenly more and more glad that I am a big stupid warrior." - Daniel Nicolai - 2006-10-18
"but other times I want to don a feathered cap and go prancing down the byways in pretty purple tights" - Daniel Nicolai - 2006-09-20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Nicolai
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Jerky |
Oct 18 2006, 10:11 AM
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Former PW Project Manager
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So, reagents would act as training wheels? I am not opposed to the idea at all.
All I want here, is to ensure there is a way to make sure higher level (read: non-reagent using) sorcerers/mages have to buy and sell like everyone else. If it turns into something where once they get to that level, they are then exempt from dumping their money back into the economy, then its harder to get a balanced economy.
We may be able to assume, however, if they get to that "level," then they are high enough in skill, and experienced enough that they may be able to afford a house. We could then use the housing/towns/technology upgrades system to be the money sink for them.
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Erik Briggs (Jerky) Project Manager My Blog
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Maxwell |
Oct 20 2006, 11:11 AM
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I think their is one thing everyone is forgetting someone else who would use reagents. An Alchemist. They could make potions that would cast spells, dyes for armor for better protection, and their are probally more I can't think of. Reagents will always be needed. Maybe we should make alchemy something that fits perfectly in with mages. I am unsure how at the moment, but if I get any Ideas I will let you know or if you have any ideas post them.
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Programming is a complex blend of art, science, logic, engineering, design, and craftsmanship -Steve Yegge
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Honis |
Oct 21 2006, 10:43 PM
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I think forcing mages (strict mages, not the melee and magic type mages) to use reagents is like forcing a warrior to use an item every time he swings his sword!
Magic is a mages only real weapon in games. They should pay for each weapon just as a warrior has to pay for each of his. As the mage progresses, certain spells should reach a limit to how high they can be skilled because a master of something can't learn anything more about it. This forces mages to learn new spells (buy a new spell book/scroll/whatever) just as a warrior is expected to buy new weapons and armor to match his increasing skill.
One way of handling mana use by pure mages is to have the mana used to cast, based on there skill of the spell. If your a master of spark, then you should be able to cast it with minimal mana waste compared to someone who just learned the spell.
For the semi mage types, mana and/or reagents would be nice to see. As suggested before, the use of reagents would reduce the need for a large mana pool. I also think these spells should use mana and reagents based on skill. Someone who masters Heal Wounds won't waste as much reagent as he gives cites (in mouth, mind, or motion) the incantation.
For the people who are not a part of any magical skill. I think they make a choice not to use magic so why let them? Reagents should be defined as an item that assists the use of mana. That said, I think some spells should have some potion that has the same effect (an alchemist for example). The potion can be used on or thrown at anyone (obvious pvp restricting applies). This will allow non-mage types to go and do some things that mages can. The best example I can think of is being used in Final Fantasy XI. The white mage gets the spell Sneak. The target of the spell makes no noise for some calculated period. If your not a white mage, you buy Silent Potions from Alchemists (a crafting guild in FFXI, not a job class). You get the same silent effects as the spell, but it costs money. Financially the white mage has the advantage in exploring hazardous areas, but for spells like this, the cost of finding/buying the spell is hazardous/expensive.
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Hankellin |
Oct 21 2006, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE(Honis @ Oct 21 2006, 09:43 PM) I think forcing mages (strict mages, not the melee and magic type mages) to use reagents is like forcing a warrior to use an item every time he swings his sword! ~snip~ I agree in most part, I was trying to say that if a spell requires a reagent when first learned then it should still require the reagent when mastered. The spell,when mastered,would not require much mana from the Master Mage as it would from a novice, but it would still require the reagent. I believe that somewhere in this thread it was suggested that eventually a mage would not need the reagent to cast the spell and this is where I disagree.
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Jaramar |
Oct 22 2006, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(Maxwell @ Oct 22 2006, 10:51 AM) Why not seperate Magic classes one with reagents and one without. Firstly there are no classes. Secondly the advantage would be too large either in one direction or the other be be worth it. It is _IMPORTANT_ to note the spell components are _NOT_ always consumed upon casting. Spell component loss is the exception rather then the norm. If you are trying spells a bit above your capability then, yes, you will lose spell components faster, but an old magic user should only lose a component every 25-100 casts of a low level spell... but go up to 1-5 lost per spell and a HIGH failure chance if he's trying to cast something he's not ready for. Most likely it would average out to losing 1 or 2 components every 5-10 casts of a spell at your level.
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-Jaramar Hillslayer Insane Gnome
"'Live and let live' is my philosophy these days," I remarked. Random chuckled. "What a quaint notion. I'll bet it will last all of five minutes." -Nine Princes in Amber
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