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> Combat requirements
Pashta
post Mar 22 2005, 09:52 AM
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here is a posible idea.

the avatar can only carry one set of armor (the one he or she is wearing) and a limited amount of weapons the can be switched on the fly( like in a fps).

if you want to switch armors on the field you need a mount or pet to cary it for you and not during combat.

depending on the size of the weapons and what the armor alows you you can have different weapons on different places on the body.

for example: a first level could carry one sword and one dager. But as you increase in level, you can have different positions for weapon of different sizes and power. You could have on your back you could have two swords enabling duel welding, One big sword, or one shield that could give a defencive bonus, or a back pack to increase inventory.



Great ideas here! Makes it very realistic. I like!!


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isupreme
post Mar 31 2005, 05:52 PM
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what i realize is the best part of allowing players to freely move from type of character to another (assuming they have opened them) is:

It allows teams to adjust to need. If my 5 friends are all tanks and we have no cleric our fun is hampered. If i can go change out and become the cleric and so on, we can go have fun quickly without hassle of finding a cleric and waiting.

so much now the games we play must not make us wait.

I could see that with many player abilities possible, only some of them at one time, and no penelty for changing would be a tremendous help.
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isupreme
post Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM
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another steal, this time from far cry of all things.

In far cry, when you take the time and the click to focus your shot, you do better aiming. ( no cost to stamina etc. just a slight time required to accomplish)

Could we have an aiming effect which is quick and visual? sort of like a feat enhancement?
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Blacksmile
post Apr 5 2005, 03:02 AM
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It allows teams to adjust to need. If my 5 friends are all tanks and we have no cleric our fun is hampered. If i can go change out and become the cleric and so on, we can go have fun quickly without hassle of finding a cleric and waiting.

Hum, this sounds a bit like you want to be able to have a character able to play every role with just a flick of his wrist...
I think switching between two or even three possible "classes" is ok, but more than everything else i do not want allround specialists in the game.
After all I agree that i should be possible to switch your role without waisting money or experience but i think if this needs you to change your equipment the process should take time to not make people to switch from one role to a completely different during combat.
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isupreme
post Apr 5 2005, 07:22 AM
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blacksmile maybe you missed my point above when you made this post including,

my opinion is:
To move from one skill tree to another simply go to the bank or other reststop, change out your armor and weapons.
Then move your abilitiy choice from one to the other.

Go out and fight..........

Dont enable this type of choosing in mid battle.
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emeraven
post Apr 6 2005, 08:24 PM
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what i realize is the best part of allowing players to freely move from type of character to another (assuming they have opened them) is:

It allows teams to adjust to need. If my 5 friends are all tanks and we have no cleric our fun is hampered. If i can go change out and become the cleric and so on, we can go have fun quickly without hassle of finding a cleric and waiting.

so much now the games we play must not make us wait.

I could see that with many player abilities possible, only some of them at one time, and no penelty for changing would be a tremendous help.

I would actually challenge this, I have run all tank groups in games, It takes an ajustment in tactics but it can be made to work well. It was no less fun for any of us, in fact it was quite a blast.

I do see your point but perhaps the game be friendly to differing tactics in battle and perhaps some guidence to not get stuck in the "group must have healer" mindset.


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Phoenix
post Apr 7 2005, 02:58 PM
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i wonder what it would be like to be able to aim with your bow or weapon like in a FPS instead of the very common click on enemy and wait till it dies.
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pendrako
post Apr 11 2005, 06:39 AM
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Minthos - I like your idea about Light and Severe wounds. Bushido Blade, a playstation fighting game, used a similar system instead of the omnipresent health bars on all other fighting games. The game was based on ancient samurai combat, and it was possible to defeat someone with just one strike, which made learning how to defend properly vital. Early fights tended to be over very quickly, but once fighters learned to defend the head and body fights began lasting longer and longer. The strategy changed to attacking the arms and legs in order to disable them and slow your opponent, opening up a weakness in their defense through which to make a killing strike.


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Corky
post May 6 2005, 05:56 AM
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Concerning the issue of a player being able to change from a warrior to a mage in the middle of combat: It will be impossible to prevent this entirely if the skill system would be based similary to that of Wish, if every player can train every skill then there wll inevitably be characters who are able to switch
from combat to range in battle. The way this problem is most commonly solved is by having classes which restrict you to only being able to learn certain skills, however I think the class system is what often takes away from
MMO's.

What I suggest that instead of being restricted by class each player will be able to pick a certain number of combat skills to specialize in (for example a player could specialize in any two areas say archery and swords). However there could be a disadvantage by choosing two combat skills to master, something along the lines of the player only being able to learn 5 spells or combos for each combat skill mastery, where as players who choose to specialize for example as a mage will be able to learn 20 spells instead for the 5 they would be allowed if they were to choose mage and warrior.
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Jerky
post May 6 2005, 06:06 PM
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While Wish had an open skill system, I do not think they allowed warrior/mages. I am sure that we will not be allowing people to be mages and warriors. The way you described doing this is not the most common. UO did it by linking skills. If one goes up, its linked skill goes down. In this case, any fighting skills (depending on what we implement) would be in a group and any magic would be in the opposing group. We could get a lot more specific, but at this point, since none of our skills have been decided, we don't need to. This system could be set up with a simple 1/1 ratio, or it could be very diverse. The 1to1 system is simple in that, when one goes up 0.1, the other goes down 0.1. straight across the board. This can be expanded on in many ways, for example: We could do this sort of thing in another ratio other than 1/1. We could also not have it go into effect until a character has reached skill level X, so players could experiment for a while until they found something that they liked.

Anyways, this sort of balancing needs testing to find the best configuration. Most other games do a lot of it in BETA, but almost never find that balance. This is where the term 'Nerfing' came to be. Devs know that in order to change the course of their game (for the greater good), they need to try and balance things, even after a game goes live. We are FAR from this, but it is important to think about nonetheless.

As far as as parts of this discussion (thread) go, there are some other things we need to consider:

Combos have been brought up. This is something that needs to be decided on.
Line of sight. I know people have talked about line of sight as far as ranged weapons and hiding from mobs.
Direction facing. This has been brought up. Whether a person/mob is facing the right direction.
Interface. A request for something other than clicking has been made. A request for nice icons (although not totally pertaining to this discussion) has been made. Memorizing spells has been brought up. Runes have been mentioned for this, but there are many options.
Limitations. Time limitations on things like putting on armor, equiping items/weapons, etc. has been brought up.
Damage. Will there be different types? Severe, light, medium, heavy, critical, unconscious, backstab, sneak attack, throat slit, parry, dodge, block, deflect, evade, absorb, channel, redirect, etc.


A lot of these items can cross over into other discussions, but they all have some merit when it comes to combat. I think the time is near that we break the broad things down into their own threads.

Until then, lets get discussions moving again. I'm going to try to open things up again on all the un-decided requirments threads. Expect more this weekend :). (Now that I finally have some time ;))


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Hankellin
post May 6 2005, 06:43 PM
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I think that if someone wants to be a warrior-mage then it should be possible but VERY difficult(with a possible racial bonus towards this for elves).

Armor limits and spell limits would have to be applied.


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Shaidar
post Jul 6 2005, 12:04 PM
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I dont think Mage should be a starting class at all, I posted another thread that I think magic should be new to the over all world of PW, characters should have to experiment with it. A player that decides to be a warrior may find some spare time and decide to manipulate some of the elements and see what he can come up with (out of thousands of combinations), however if that warrior leaves his heavy armor on to do this than it takes enormous strain to reach mentally through the armor and touch the elements (meaning more time to lay each strand of the spell and more energy too) over time with the more complicated spells a warrior would have no use for magic because if they tried to use it it would wipe out all thier energy and cause them to faint or some such thing. A warrior could use elementry magic but nothing more unless they wanted to give up some of thier uberness by dropping the heavy armor, I dont see any reason why we couldnt have people running around in robes that still know how to use a sword well.

Now more on the thread topic...

The main topic I am going to talk about is weight... I deffinately think what a person has on thier person should effect how well they fight. If I was planning to fight a whole group of mobs I wouldnt have a backpack on to wiegh me down, thats why my mount would be for. If I were gathering I would have a backpack on cause I dont have to be too flexible for that, so I think that a person that wants to be an efficient fighter shouldnt be able to carry anymore than what they can personally hold into a battle.


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Zephir62
post Jul 7 2005, 05:55 PM
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Having big plans could put lots of stress on the programmers and the engine, but having big plans and putting lots of time into it pays off.

You can't have random spawning. We need to make that a thing of the past. Things with intellect should have actual intellect. If two goblins come across eachother, they could either A. Get along really well and maybe pair up on their ambush the human game, B. Hate eachother, and try and fight eachother, or C. Pass eachother by indifferently and walk away. While, with a pack of wolves, they wouldn't be so accepting - It would either be B or C. Options would limit. Next up would be how they are spawned. Each mob would be designated variable male or female. Upon contact of two different genders, they could "mate" (no animations, please) and eventually another of the mob would be born, possibly if you wish make a "smaller, more childish" version of the mob if you felt you had the time to make it. The new-born would instantly be taken into the group, and so would the female/male mated with. Statistics for the mob would be a random between a minimum and a max. When a group of mobs would be formed, the "strongest" of the group would be elected the leader - maybe you could designate them for the player, have their name in red, etc. I could go on, but anyway, you pretty much get the point for this subject. While it sounds very complicated to the average person, this would most likely be suprizingly easy to do as it is mostly variables and short/fast procedures. This would also make for an interesting case as species and certain animals could even be driven to extinction. Have trees be able to cut down and "reproduce" would also allow for entire forests to be cleared and put for building.

Next up, I'd like to brainstorm on the idea of Archery. You have point and click movement. But say you want real-time archery with wind, obstacles, and the player controlling the aim for himself. Let's make a fake scenario as it would be easiest to explain. Assign the key "C" for combat. To move, you left click on terrain. To pull out your bow, which you have equipped, you press and hold C. The camera zooms in up to your shoulder with the bow ready and the arrow on the string, and no crosshair is shown. Left clicking is reassigned at this point from moving, to pulling back the string. You hold left click, aim while pulling back the arrow, and let go of the left click. This let's the arrow fly to where you shot it at - the more you pull back, the less wind has effect on it's direction, the more damage it does, the further it flies, and the more durability damage it does to your bow. Sounds easy and nice, right? Right.

Sword of Sword combat would be a tough one, if you were to make it completely player based, as Point and Click movement hinders how diverse you can make it. On the other hand, Point and Click is a good thing by reducing strain on the servers, so it's double edged. Hopefully someone else out there could think of something dynamic for melee combat. But I'd like to think that in a realistic game, a brave peasant could kill a cocky knight.





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Shaidar
post Jul 8 2005, 07:47 AM
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I think spawn point are a must, at least vs. birth. If the game were made so that mobs had to birth then as you said mobs could be driven to extinction. The first places to go extinct would be the newb areas, this would push the newbs out to fight tougher things and eventually they couldnt handle it and they would quit. The only way that birth could work is if mobs could get pregnant, come to term, and birth a mob in less than 1 game hour it just wouldnt work, its not realistic. Spawning may not be realistic either but you can make it so some mobs spawn out of caves that a player cant enter but mobs can exit, or just have it so mobs spawn off the map and explore thier way on. Problem with set spawn points such as caves etc. though is then you have to account for campers. Over all the random spawn, though unrealistic, is the best way to go for a game setting.

As to your archery idea I think that the first person aim and pull would be a nice additive though I think that if this is the case they would def have to give the option for constant WASD movement because if I dropped into first person to aim and I couldnt use my mouse to move, only to fire, then I would have to have a way to avoid the monsters that may be coming close to me by backing a way while pulling the arrow for release.

As for melee combat I would love to see a way to target different areas. Say I enclose on a monster and the monster blocks its head, instead I click on its stomach and attack it there. I think it was Black & White that did this best. When 2 creatures would encounter eachother you could click where you wanted to hit your opponent. If they were not blocking the right area you would hit successfully. This would add a very unique combat system to an MMO, and if you guys think you could make it work... That would be AWESOME!


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Minthos
post Nov 20 2005, 08:39 PM
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You say that like you expect a "normal" mmorpg like wow where level differences are huge, where two level 25 characters are too weak for one level 30 mob, but can kill 10 level 20 mobs with no problem. I don't know if PW will be like that, but I hope it won't.

What prevents a mob from becoming pregnant and giving birth in less than one hour?

That assumes there are indeed newbie areas, and that there are no easy mobs outside those newbie areas. I would rather like a system where the wilderness everywhere is full of mobs of varying difficulty, so wherever you go and whatever "level" you are, you can usually find something you can kill and something that can kill you.

What this would mean for noob area mobs becoming extinct is that some of the easy mobs would always stay in areas that are too dangerous for any adventurer that would want to bother killing them, and so if they become extinct in other areas they can reproduce in that dangerous area and migrate to less dangerous areas.

That assumes players can defeat any and all mobs that spawn at the spawn point. I think, if mobs want to gather in one place long enough to spawn out of it, they would also want to be able to defend themselves against eradication by a high-level character.


I hope what I've written between the lines here is intelligible :)
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Maxwell
post Feb 13 2006, 07:59 PM
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For combat I think people should be a loud to use a weapon freely as he chooses.

For example: Being able to throw your sword at an enemy.


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Jerky
post Apr 2 2007, 10:12 PM
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Moved posts to a better thread and locking this for now.

Check here for moved posts:
http://www.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=6339


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