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> Senses and spatial awareness, Why radar may not be so evil after all
glibdud
post May 7 2007, 01:28 PM
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I've never been a big fan of the on-screen radar in MMOs. In SWG it sort of fit with the theme, but in a fantasy game, it (a) shows more information than your character should know, and (b) draws too much attention to the interface and away from the environment.

So as a general rule, I've been anti-radar in philosophy. But then I realized that restricting the character's sensory perception to a single forward viewport and a flat (maybe stereo) sound field is perhaps a bit too much erring in the other direction. I mean, come on... we know a lot more about our surroundings than what we see directly in front of us.

Supposing a radar screen was implemented, but with only basic terrain features (for scale as much as anything else), and not with the usual dynamic entities. It could instead be used for other senses, such as:

Sound: Perhaps based on racial abilities and some sort of "Listening" skill, small or stealthy creatures/characters behind the character may be detected by sound. Doing so by actual game sound isn't really sufficient, since there's a definite limit to the amount of info that can be gleaned from stereo sound. Instead, when a character detects a sound, a pulse radiates from a point on the radar in the general vicinity of the source. The better the player is at listening and the louder the sound was, the smaller the potential offset of the sound, and the tighter the pulse radius.

Smell: Why not? To my knowledge, MMOs have to this point ignored the sense of smell. Why not open the door to characters with sensitive noses? It could work in a manner similar to (but less precise than) sound, but it's also affected by wind.

Radar is the obvious way things like this could be implemented, but I'm sure there are other possibilities. The less you draw the player's eyes to particular elements of the UI, the more immersive the game will be.

This post has been edited by glibdud: May 7 2007, 01:31 PM
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MNZ
post May 7 2007, 02:25 PM
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Right on. A radar is needed, but should be limited. You can't see whats behind you (but you can hear it). There needs to be a kind of feild of view. Also something might obscure something else. There might be a killer waiting or you behind that big rock.
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Alexander
post May 7 2007, 03:23 PM
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Good idea!

Sound radar and perhaps trails of smell on the ground as a visual effect close to your character.

Also consider Tremor sense for creatures with exceptional senses and perhaps even Blindsense.
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Jerky
post May 7 2007, 03:34 PM
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Here is the thought I had while reading this. Because we dont actually have everyone with surround sound or smell-o-meter displays, there has to be a way to convey these ideas. Unfortunately we are still limited to the radar screen.

Now, taking it a bit further than a standard circle, we could have a different colored dot for a different creature. Now, taking skill into play, these dots could be larger or smaller. The radar screen that I can imagine would be something like this:
IPB Image
The gradient is because toward the edge, it gets worse. Taking skill into account, the radii could grow or shrink.

To give it some explanation, we could add some color to see the different types of radius.
IPB Image
Its not perfect, but its an improvement over the standard radar you see in games. Add in the ideas for skills, like if a person has excellent hearing, the hearing radius would increase. Then, you begin to approach, imo, an acceptable implementation.

Now, when you combine the two, you get:
IPB Image


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glibdud
post May 7 2007, 04:49 PM
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Actually, thinking about it some more, it doesn't necessarily need to be tied to a radar. When the character detects a sound outside his field of view, an arrow flashes on the edge of the screen pointing in the direction of the sound. For example, for a sound behind and to the character's right, an arrow pointing off the bottom right side of the screen would appear. Then the character is free to spin his view around to find the source, which appears as a hazy column of colored light dropping down into the area from which the sound came.

Better listening skills/louder sounds = narrower, more precise columns.

Scent could be handled as a wedge/cone centered on the character, since it more or less will only give a direction, and not so much a distance.

That way, you can remove the radar as a UI element altogether and keep the players focused on the environment.

If we do go with a radar, though, I like yours, Jerky. I would swap hearing and smell, and make the smell ring (the hearing ring in your diagram) go all the way around, but make it narrower.
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John
post May 7 2007, 04:49 PM
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Erm, I'm completely anti radar. Its not needed, not at all. I'm also Pro-First Person so this is the point of view I'II convey my idea from.

If you want visualized abilities such as these, smell, advanced hearing etc... Hearing could be a very slight ripple effect to the center of the screen with an area of the monitor that reflects the direction of the sound/s lighting up a color thats used to represent sound. Kinda like targetting arrows on flight sims that show you where other planes are when they're off your screen or like the red flashes you get on Half Life showing you which direction you're being attacked from (this is a feature worth implementing on its own merit). Smell could be the same way, with a different color on screen marker, and a slight haze effect to the screen, almost like looking through the hot air above a flame.

Theres no need to have a radar, ruin emersion and then drag the players eyes constantly away from the main focus of the screen.

Edit: Yeah Glib you're right, we did basically post the same thing at the same time tongue.gif doh
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greendots
post May 7 2007, 06:11 PM
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I really like the idea and the represenation Jerky made. I would have liked the idea of a full-fledged radar system but this is much more realistic. Also, for different species this radar would change. One may have a very large area to hear noises and foot falls while another may have peripheral vision and see maybe 280 degrees. Certain combat professions might be able to sneak and attack a human easily from the right side while another species will notice all attacks but from the rear. A third species will be able to hear the attacker from all directions but only in the last seconds.

Another idea is to have a tracking ability for the radar. A species that is tracking a creature or another humunoid would see a trail on the radar in the color for smell. For some depending on skill and species the effectiveness would vary greatly.

I'm pro-radar and pro-third person perspective btw tongue.gif
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Exudos
post May 7 2007, 09:08 PM
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Alright, I love the idea of no radar, but I don't think you should always be able to smell stuff...
Unless it's a really strong scent you won't.

You could have a skill (button) to press that would activate a smell sort of vision
This vision would allow for trails of wafting heatish rays to be seen, all different colors depending on what type of thing they are, or what you THINK they are biggrin.gif
The higher the skill, the farther you can smell, the better you can define the trails and follow them.

If your skill were say, two, you might see the scent of a skunk a few feet off, and still not be able to find it. However, a skilled hunter, one who has maybe SMELLED IT BEFORE (it could be added to a smell list after you kill it) would be able to track it, even if it blew off in the wind.
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Maxwell
post May 7 2007, 09:15 PM
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I am sorry but this smelling thing just keeps making me think that we are all going to be dogs. Why not just a trail that a creature has taken. Then you could actually "track" the animal or person.


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Exudos
post May 7 2007, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE(Maxwell @ May 7 2007, 08:15 PM) *

I am sorry but this smelling thing just keeps making me think that we are all going to be dogs. Why not just a trail that a creature has taken. Then you could actually "track" the animal or person.


Well I don't really think that's how it works in real life ethier. Dogs smell the same things we do, no difference from them seeing smell waves and us seeing smell waves..
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glibdud
post May 7 2007, 09:25 PM
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Scent would likely be an active skill. You can activate it to find out what might be in the area, or more particularly to get an idea of where a particular creature might be. And no... it's probably not for everyone, but the capability is there to give certain races impressive senses of smell.
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Exudos
post May 7 2007, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE(glibdud @ May 7 2007, 08:25 PM) *

Scent would likely be an active skill. You can activate it to find out what might be in the area, or more particularly to get an idea of where a particular creature might be. And no... it's probably not for everyone, but the capability is there to give certain races impressive senses of smell.


Yes yes, I think it should be active, but not as acutely as when you trigger the skill, when your running around hunting something with your sledge hammer ready huffing and puffing about, you aren't really trying to track smells.

I think that it should just be much more effective when you actually use the skill than it is when your just running around. You could also have a reduced rate of movement while tracking scents...
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Maxwell
post May 7 2007, 09:37 PM
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You guys say your doing this so it doesn't take away from the environment, while I believe it does, all these trails of colors just remind me of the first Harry Potter game that came out (I was young and stupid), you followed the trail to find people. It looks so unrealistic and gross in my opinion.

Maybe we could go at this a little different way, after the idea was explained to me a little better I like the idea, I am just not a fan of a colored trail.


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Exudos
post May 7 2007, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE(Maxwell @ May 7 2007, 08:37 PM) *

Maybe we could go at this a little different way, after the idea was explained to me a little better I like the idea, I am just not a fan of a colored trail.


Hmm, well I don't like the idea of pings, and I was suggesting the thing as a skill that kind of overlays the enviornment with paths, but it would not be constant, only if you turned the skill on. Once you turn it on your character shuts his eyes, so what you can see becomes black, and little trails of visual smokeish scents float around and you try to follow them, bumping into trees and such.. perhaps as you get better you can see more of your enviornment as you track.

I'm suggesting this as a way to track your kills, not as a way to play the entire game. If anyone has any better ideas, please, go for it! biggrin.gif
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glibdud
post May 7 2007, 09:44 PM
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No, I'm not big on a trail either. I just think that for smell, it should provide you with a general direction (if there's a smell at all). If you want to track something, go in the appropriate direction for a bit and then take another whiff.
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joshpurple
post May 7 2007, 09:48 PM
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Kind of off topic (pardon smile.gif ), but -this made me think of how some spells / effects might work maybe? Being able to enhance or block others senses, or be invisible to sight, but 'visible' to smell, etc.? Well anyway, cool thread, *runs off*


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MNZ
post May 8 2007, 02:28 AM
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There are usually diffrent scents in the air and actually isolating one and following is not a peice of cake (unless it's terribly strong) and it should not be as easy as coloured trails in the game. I think it should be just an indication of direction (ie. North, South, etc and as you become better North East, South West, etc). So you could bring up a menu with the scents your character smells right now and pick one to follow. Then press a botton, he sniffs around for three to five seconds and you get a little pointer on the radar that points in the appropriate direction. The pointer only points in that direction, so if you thought he went North but then he headed east you'd have to re-sniff. But then again actually getting a precise list of isolated smells should take some time and results (correctness) of the list should vary with skill.

One more thing, Nice diagram Jerky! The sight angle should be wider though to include peripheral vision.

This post has been edited by MNZ: May 8 2007, 02:32 AM
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Alexander
post May 8 2007, 11:31 AM
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*sigh* so many posts yet so little is added to the concept. Time to expand on the idea!

OK, first of all I’d like to say this, human smell pretty much SUCKS, ok we got that? Its not that its terribly bad, its just that we can’t imagine how well some animals (dog for example) can smell. Correction, well we can because some scientist did make work of it and we got statistics on how many times a dog’s nose is better then ours. But that still doesn’t mean that we can imagine HOW a dog smells or how it feels for him, we just don’t know. So the only thing we can do is try to thing of different way of implementing exceptional smell/hearing/vibration sense/see sounds (bats)/taste smell (snake) in the animal kingdom there are many different senses and we shut try to enhance the game and its playable races by taking it all into the game.

Trails of smell do exist however your nose isn’t build like your eyes, smell doesn’t bounce off matter and then enters your nose giving you prices direction of its source. Smell works slower and it works with the wind. Remember that you can tell who’s at your back by smelling the air for traces of their odour. Your nose only tells you the smell of something that passes by your nose, it doesn’t perceive objects from far away so you’ll have to guess where it came from by guessing. The nice thing about smell is that it can’t be seen and that it lingers wherever its owner has bin, even if its moved away a little by the wind the trail doesn’t really break up, it will always lead you to the owner.

How then to implement smell? Easy! Just as much as Jerky already purposed only not in radar form. A small area around your character (if in third person view) will chance in colour depending on the small you walk thro. In this way you don’t get a heads up or any funny trails and smells that occupy the same area blend in somewhat so that it’s harder to see what you smell. In first person view I’d say his radar was spot on! Have the colours dance in the centre as you walk around smells.

As an extra note I’d like to add that only races (and NPC monsters) with exceptional smell shut get the smell radar or field unless there are some pretty obvious smells in the air that even normal humans find offending. Also it more of an racial treat then a skill, no matter how much you sniff around your nose isn’t going to grow any bigger so its little use to add skill ranks to such a thing that can’t chance. The only thing that does grow is a player’s familiarity with the ability but that doesn’t require skill ranks either.

Now for the hearing department.

This could indeed be done with radar but it doesn’t have to.

I rather like the idea for not having radar for sound but have a small arrow at the base of your characters feet point in the direction it heard something unique, let the arrow flicker for a second or two or three and let that be it (unless the sound persists like a dragons roar that might last for 10 seconds before it opens to hunt on ya.) There don’t need to be ripple effects just different sized arrows. If you hear an earth quake you could have a circle around you indicating you’re in the middle of it or have a wide arrow indicate its general direction. The wider the arrow the bigger the origin of the sound it, the longer the arrow the further away it shut be. You can even use coloured arrows for reptilian sounds/banshee howls, zombie mown etc. in case some creatures or some type of creatures make very different and easy to describe sounds. In the same way you can indicate with colour if you hear a man running or sneaking.

OK, that solves those two things (I hope) now some something that the radar is actually needed; Tremorsense and Blindsight!

Come on those two (especial Blindsight) are some of the coolest and most useful abilities to have. No longer do you have to guess what’s behind dungeon door number 2 you already know that there are 3 zombies behind it scuffling about the room. People will finally have a real challenge sneaking up against that dragon with its large Blindsight radar that detects even magically invisible characters.

Ok but how does it work in a correct manner? With Tremorsense you could possibly detect invisible creatures. (If they are in contact with the element your Tremorsense works with, usually the ground but it could just as easily be water or air.) But you still can’t actually see them, you only know the general location. You could do this in two ways and I would actually like to see both of them used together to greater effect. You can simply display all moving objects and creatures on your radar and/or you can have coloured 5/5feet squares on the screen indicating that something is walking there. Both have good and bad sides to it so in order to get the most of this ability I’d say we use both. The coloured squares don’t allow you to feel behind you as the ability shut and the radar doesn’t pinpoint the location closely enough as a coloured square would. So just use both.

Blindsight would pretty much the same way exempt that it doesn’t only rely on feeling tremors; it is a combination of exceptional senses working together. So you can display it in the same way as Tremorsense but it won’t be fooled by creatures not in touch with your element, a creature would have to mask it smell, sight and sound before disappearing off the radar.

And then I would like to add a small one nonetheless deserves its place. The sound sense of the bat, well known but not yet named by anyone here.

With this critter the sight part of Jerky’s radar comes into play but it won’t just give you the info on creatures it actually displays every obstacle in its path. Now, that might not seem like much of a trick but this is a fantasy game and we can make much cooler stuff happen. Instead of giving off sound pulses you can give of magic pulses that don’t just let you detect the first wave of obstructions but continue thro them across a larger range. You would get a very detailed map indeed. Naturally the bats of our world don’t have that good eyesight (until it was discovered that they actually do have a pretty good eyesight but whatever) and more rely on this radar type of thing, but to them it is naturally not displayed as a radar. More like a field of sound that they can so intuitively form in their mind that it would function like vision.

Another thing can also be considered with magic; Spying eyes!

You’ve probably heard of such a type of spell, sending out an eye for you to scout while you wait in your lair for those pesky adventurers to come and try to stop your undead ways. Or perhaps you are familiar with the spell that sends out multiple eyes to scout out all directions around you for a mile? Such things shut be implemented as well which leaves a lot more substance to continue this topic.
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Exudos
post May 8 2007, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE(Alexander @ May 8 2007, 10:31 AM) *

*sigh* so many posts yet so little is added to the concept. Time to expand on the idea!

OK, first of all I’d like to say this, human smell pretty much SUCKS, ok we got that? Its not that its terribly bad, its just that we can’t imagine how well some animals (dog for example) can smell. Correction, well we can because some scientist did make work of it and we got statistics on how many times a dog’s nose is better then ours. But that still doesn’t mean that we can imagine HOW a dog smells or how it feels for him, we just don’t know. So the only thing we can do is try to thing of different way of implementing exceptional smell/hearing/vibration sense/see sounds (bats)/taste smell (snake) in the animal kingdom there are many different senses and we shut try to enhance the game and its playable races by taking it all into the game.

Trails of smell do exist however your nose isn’t build like your eyes, smell doesn’t bounce off matter and then enters your nose giving you prices direction of its source. Smell works slower and it works with the wind. Remember that you can tell who’s at your back by smelling the air for traces of their odour. Your nose only tells you the smell of something that passes by your nose, it doesn’t perceive objects from far away so you’ll have to guess where it came from by guessing. The nice thing about smell is that it can’t be seen and that it lingers wherever its owner has bin, even if its moved away a little by the wind the trail doesn’t really break up, it will always lead you to the owner.

How then to implement smell? Easy! Just as much as Jerky already purposed only not in radar form. A small area around your character (if in third person view) will chance in colour depending on the small you walk thro. In this way you don’t get a heads up or any funny trails and smells that occupy the same area blend in somewhat so that it’s harder to see what you smell. In first person view I’d say his radar was spot on! Have the colours dance in the centre as you walk around smells.

As an extra note I’d like to add that only races (and NPC monsters) with exceptional smell shut get the smell radar or field unless there are some pretty obvious smells in the air that even normal humans find offending. Also it more of an racial treat then a skill, no matter how much you sniff around your nose isn’t going to grow any bigger so its little use to add skill ranks to such a thing that can’t chance. The only thing that does grow is a player’s familiarity with the ability but that doesn’t require skill ranks either.





Uh, what?

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that smells should be EASY to pick apart. Colored as they are, they could easily mix into new colors... I'm also saying that it should only appear as you use a skill (sniff) which could be part of the trackers abilities. Otherwise, if you are NOT a tracker, you could only be able to use the always on version of the skill. I'm not very sure how that one would work, maybe a different color arrow could appear for smells?
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Alexander
post May 8 2007, 02:32 PM
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...How are you going to make sense of smell a skill?

Your race either has a good sense of smell or it doesn't, and if you want to shut it of you'll have to hold your nose.

A skill just wouldn't make sense and neither would an on and off switch. Just as we humans can't choose to just grow a more keen nose or better hearing.
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