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Something to consider, though it'll probably start a fight =( |
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Jerky |
Oct 18 2006, 10:29 PM
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Former PW Project Manager
Group: PW Admin
Posts: 1,610
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Dallas, GA
Member No.: 62
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There is something to be learned from WoW, and I defend it even though I don't like it. We all have to pay homage to it because the MMO industry wouldn't be what it is without it.
Some things I think we can learn are that the newbie levels, tutorials, GUI and those things that you start out with are very important. The first few minutes spent in any MMO are crucial. I think if WoW sucked at those areas, it would not be what it is. I think the word is "accessible." Even females who haven't ever played games, let alone MMO's now play WoW. They did a fantastic job refinining their systems to the point that it is an art.
Other than that, refinement was also taken to the next level with WoW. I think it can be agreed that they didn't bring anything new to the table, but they did bring everything else in such a good way as to make it incredibly addicting. I think we ALL could pick it apart, and I think that is why we are here. You do, however, have to give credit where credit is due. Blizzard did us all a favor and brought life back to a tepid industry. We all know Wish could have done some great things, but I know that that may have only been in a niche market. I am fine in a niche market, as long as it has a lesser percentage of the griefing powergamers, etc.
Anyways, thats my 2 cents regarding WoW.
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Erik Briggs (Jerky) Project Manager My Blog
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Maxwell |
Oct 19 2006, 10:58 AM
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Master
Group: Members
Posts: 250
Joined: 11-October 05
From: Salisbury, Md
Member No.: 560
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Well said Jerky. Tutorials and making it feel like immersion in the beginning is where it is at. It helps people learn the new style of playing, of the new game. It helps people understand the controls instead of running around asking how to talk, or what button make does this. I think their is an actual thread regarding this I am not sure though I will have to check.
I am not picking sides on the WOW thing, personally because I have never played it. I also personally think because it is such a big game you have more people complaining about it then you would a smaller game. For example, do you here people complaining about McDonalds more or your local restaurant. McDonalds because more people in the world go to McDonalds than you your local restaurant. This probably doesn't even belong in here and I probably don't know what I am talking about but thats my, as everyone has been saying, 2 cents.
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Programming is a complex blend of art, science, logic, engineering, design, and craftsmanship -Steve Yegge
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Pandra |
Oct 19 2006, 03:26 PM
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Wisdom
Group: Members
Posts: 742
Joined: 19-September 06
From: Missouri
Member No.: 640
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I guess I should have expect that to turn into WoW hate/defend thread since it's unfortunate the original blog and my other groups discussion started there. But the point was the time issue. Yes, WoW has a very pretty interface and is easy to pick up.
Radio Storm said "The only reason I don't play anymore is because I haven't the time to sit through a 3-4 hour dungeon crawl like I did in the summer."
Ok seriously, who among us has 3-4 hours to give to what amounts to one tiny part of a much bigger game? An hour, two, sure. But I have kids, a job, a zoo, a husband, and other stuff vieing for my attention. Even Blizzard realizes alot of their instances are to demanding time wise for the average gamer. That's why BC is being released with the smaller man instances and all that associated jazz.
I don't know if you guys are even considering the instance approach to some game content, but I've know quest lines that can eat up a ridiculous amount of time to complete too.
I think the time it takes to accomplish something, weather a quest, a dungeon crawl or learning a trade needs some serious consideration. Unless your targeting the typical hard core gamer (read teenage, unemployed, living off someone else, ect.). Which, truefully, are not the kind of slackers who I'd want to associate with in real life, why would I want to pay to play with them? If you make a game that requires that kind of time commentment, than then you're most likely going to attract the kind of player that most of us are wanting to get away from.
I'm not saying it has to be easy or quick. Just there need to be well planned break points where people can go"This is good. I got this far and I can finish the rest tomorrow."
You don't have that in WoW. In WoW you have to commit that large block of time in one setting to get through an instance or you're a bad player for having a life outside the game, bad raider for dropping out half way through, bad gamer for not sticking through till the end. That's is largely Blizzard's fault for the way they've set up their instances.
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~by Honis Kain:: I liberated myself a copy of MS Office 2007 today. Pandra:: Liberated?? Kain:: With my charm. Pandra:: Does that mean you slept with someone to obtain softwear? Kain:: >.>; Pandra:: You're officially a program geek.
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Radiostorm |
Oct 22 2006, 08:46 PM
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Seasoned User
Group: Members
Posts: 70
Joined: 23-September 06
From: Toronto, Canada
Member No.: 646
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I was referring to the raid instances, like Molten Core, that constitute the majority of the endgame content. Regular instances such as SFK don't save progress because, at most, they take 2-3 hours to beat. Even then, there are numerous shortcuts that allow you to bypass instance content, such as the "backdoor" keys for Gnomeregan, Stratholme and Maraudon.
After I got the hang of dungeon crawling I could clear endgame 5-mans like Upper Blackrock Spire in around 2 hours. Heck, before I quit I was on the verge of completing Stratholme in under 45 minutes.
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I filled a plastic bag With everything I wrote And threw it off a bridge I thought that it would float The water made it sink The bag is bleeding ink I wish that I could swim I wish that I could drink I wish that it was me
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Pandra |
Oct 23 2006, 06:11 AM
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Wisdom
Group: Members
Posts: 742
Joined: 19-September 06
From: Missouri
Member No.: 640
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ok 2-3 hours is still 1-2 hours too long for many people. My play time doesn't magically increase because it's a regular instance as opposed to an endgame instance. I also don't have time to run the same instance so many times that I learn all the patterns and what not to get my run time down under an hour. If I had that much play time I wouldn't be fretting about the time thing to begin with.
I know people keep saying the target demograhic for gaming is the teen to collage crowd who have the time and money, though for the life of me I can't remember a college student ever saying "I have so much money, wha-hoo!" Maybe colleges around here are different. Most of the students around here are trying to figure out how to scrap up an extras $10 for the gas tank to get home to borrow money from mom and dad.
Most of the people I've played with on line were in the upper 20s-40 age bracket, had kids, jobs, sometimes two jobs and had that surplus income that college kids allegedly have. They've even admitted to lieing about their age on-line because they were under the impression that only "kids" played and they didn't want people knowing they were old farts. How crazy is that? You impose a false sterotype and people lie to meet it so they don't seem like freaks.
Anyway, break points or being able to do something similar to what Jerky was doing in UO would be greatly beneficial to the gamers with limited play time.
Honestly now I'm curious as the age of the average game developer that stays for the long haul as opposed to the age of the fair weather game dev who sticks around for a month or two. Who makes more money, is more sucessful. If that same logic were applied to the customer base, what would the age bracket of the loyal player who'd be more likely to invest more money into a game be? One player buying one account and playing for 6 months = $$ but how much $$ would a player buying multiple accounts and playering for a year plus net you?
Example, my husband added another WoW account this weekend because he didn't have enough character slots on his chosen server bringing our grand total up to five accounts. I'm thinking Blizzard owes me a Christmas card for that.
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~by Honis Kain:: I liberated myself a copy of MS Office 2007 today. Pandra:: Liberated?? Kain:: With my charm. Pandra:: Does that mean you slept with someone to obtain softwear? Kain:: >.>; Pandra:: You're officially a program geek.
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Radiostorm |
Oct 23 2006, 09:50 PM
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Seasoned User
Group: Members
Posts: 70
Joined: 23-September 06
From: Toronto, Canada
Member No.: 646
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A little.
Pandra, I can't relent that 2-3 consecutive hours is too long to play an online game. Given how downright optional dungeon crawls are between 1-59, and the fact that the average theatrical movie consumes no more time, I don't really see the problem.
On the same note, World of Warcraft is relatively affordable all things considered. High school students usually have their parents pay for it, and college students (such as myself) only need work an additional couple hours at a part-time job or simply avoid spending the money on beer or junk food. Even my older brother, who pays for his own residence, tuition and food, could afford a subscription. 10 dollars a month is nothing.
On the flipside, given that the intent of Wish seems to be to appeal to the older, more casual crowd, I doubt it would be wise to extend any of our dungeons beyond the 1-1.5 hour barrier. It'd simply be contradictory to the demands of our playerbase. We might even want to take the route of microdungeons that demand less than an hour of a player's time, the your prospect of multiple tiered dungeons seems promising as well.
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I filled a plastic bag With everything I wrote And threw it off a bridge I thought that it would float The water made it sink The bag is bleeding ink I wish that I could swim I wish that I could drink I wish that it was me
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