Classy vs. Classless, Why have classes? Options

[ni1s]

So, what do you prefer?

I myself don't really see the point of it all. Learn the teachings of magic and someone calls you a Mage? ( Gothic-style ), I don't want that. Sure, my character might know magic, but I don't see the need to bungle me in a class. This goes for any skill or perk.

Skip classes altogether, says I. Other players won't be able to judge other players on first glans, and it adds to variation.

[joshpurple]

It's an idea worth discussing . What do you think of using 'Profession' (instead of Class) ? From D&D days I've always guessed that 'Class' was used as a type of game balance for character type selection/creation.

So maybe looking at the idea of, 'what will your starting character choices be?' would help? Break the mind set of, "I'm going to be a mage!" type of approach to character creation?

I'm all ears on ideas .

[Timmmy]

I would have to agree with the no classes idea.If you want to you could be a farmer and nobody would ever know that you used to be a high level mage so will be real surprised when you throw a fire ball at them when they try to rob you!

I think classes should be something you decide in game yourself.By this I mean some sort of system as follows:

Class Titles:
*You get better at what you do.This improves only the abilities you actually use and isn't based on one of those putting points into things you've never used.In this way your skills rise purely on how you play and not some sort of class defined skill system.Essentially this allows for a huge amount of freedom,essential for some players to operate(or example thieves/pickpockets/assassins spies etc)by not disclosing anything about a player.

*However there will be always be players who want to show how 'uber' they are and these should be catered for also.Basically there could be some form of promotion system.There could be training arenas(better title anyone?)were a player could go and be assessed on their skills and then be given an appropriate title if they so desire based on their abilities.So Jim goes to the farmers association,shows he can plant medium level crops and some other farmer tests and is awarded with "Farmhand" title.

Now Farmhand Jim goes to get a job on a farm.The farm boss can see hes got the skills he needs and gives him the job.This obviously applies more to something like Champion Swordsman Bill or Deadeye Dave.It also shows how an assassin or a thief might not want to walk around with their work title over their head.

Class Abilities:
Again if a player so wished they could simply wander out into the wilderness,realise they can make a spark jump off their finger,spend a while practicing and by the time they return they're shooting fireballs off left right and centre.

Alternatively the player could choose a class route.The would join a mages guild,becoming 'classed' while practicing and proceed in a manner closer class skill gain as opposed to the first more natural progression.They would be nudged into choosing more class appropriate support abilites(I dont like the you've gone up a level,have some SP thing as should b a seperate support ability(channeling maybe))to the mages idea of a mage.

The original guy would have more freedom and as a result although both could spend the same time training they could have totally different abilities.For example the original person spent his time fighting to get better so most likely their magic causes more harm while the classed mage may have been pushed into channeling more so they can both use more magic and also maintain it for longer(such as a stream of flame).

Essentially as I think I'm not been that clear I think that nothing should be removed from PW but rather more allowed at the sae time,both to allow more freedom and also to attract varying players.

[echorev]

i agree that players should have an option whether they want to accept a title based on their own achievements, or something to that effect, and that players should get better at what they keep doing.

i also agree that players should be able to choose if they want to play their character with a set 'class', or whether they want to go and experiment on their own and have more freedom. this lets players have a choice whether or not to become 'classed' or whether to not.

[Maxwell]

I personally don't think that players should have a check box option about this place it in the game like Timmy said. Guilds and such, it's more immersive.

[Radiostorm]

I think a hybrid class/skill system is probably the best way to go. In a pure class system there is a certain level of rigidity that impairs immersion. It forces a player to start a new character whenever they want to try something new. On the other hand, a pure skill system is often too flexible and difficult to balance. People grind and eventually become good at everything, or simply fall into a widely accepted "best" build if limitations are set down.

[ni1s]

I personally don't think that players should have a check box option about this place it in the game like Timmy said. Guilds and such, it's more immersive.

I couldn't agree more. Also, If I join a Guild, become a carpenter, or whatever, I don't want to locked to just being that.

[Jerky]

Hmm, although it starts to go toward being off-topic, I wrote an idea down in our private wiki over a year and a half ago that applies to this discussion. If we need to break this thread off, we can, but the two issues seem to be linked somewhat.

The gist of the idea is that everyone gets to have any name they like. That is how the idea came about anyways. This idea also takes into account fame/notoriety as well. It ties in to this because, with other games (like WoW, for example) you can tell what people are, and what "level" level they are, etc. While this seems like a great idea, it caters to the power gamers who love that sort of thing, but when you think of it, it is terrible for immersion.

Essentially, this all ties in to your player identity. First off, you should be able to name your character anything (within reason), even if the name has been taken. The solution of how you do this has to do with the database and how we take care of users, but it is possible, although I wont go into detail. Next is you should be able to try and hide your identity should you want to. This means it would be skill based.

The short is that there would be skills for disguise (hide identity), but also one to see through a disguise. Also, if you chose to share your name with everyone (which would be a feature in the GUI), then it shows up, unless someone has their feature to hide everyone's name turned on. If you didn't want people to know your name, there is an introduce action that would share it with another. So, if it was your desire to share your name with others, you would have to introduce yourself to them, unless you turned on the option to share it with everyone regardless.

This becomes more complicated when you add in fame and notoriety. If you are famous or notorious, you would have your name shared whether you wanted to or not. Also, with wanted posters, you would learn someone's identity after reading their bounty poster. If that person was not disguised, you would see their name when they were on screen with you.

Now, it gets even more complicated when you add the disguise and see-through disguise skills (we could call it perceive disguise for now). These 2 skills would be exact opposites. If your disguise skill was higher than someone's perceive disguise skill, then they wouldnt be able to know who you were, even if you were famous/notorious. In the end, assuming we had a max skill cap, and both those skills were maxed (1 character's disguise skill was maxed and another's perceive disguise skill was maxed) the perceive disguise skill would win out.

As this pertains to class, I think there shouldnt be set classes, but more like a soft class system. There could be titles, but you would only get the title if a) you wanted it and B) you had the skills to match the definition of it.

As far as the skill system goes, this game will defintely be skill based, but a class would never be set in stone. Whether we had hard or soft classes at all, a player would be able to change theirs any time they wanted. Vamyen had an idea the other night about there being a class at character creation to allow for quicker setup for your character, but then maybe after a certain point that class would no longer be there (or something like that). Maybe he can share that.

----
The last part of this idea was how to keep track of people/your friends if people had the same name, and even dressed alike. Its obvious that if we allowed that, there would be griefers who tried to impersonate another person, just to be a pain. The answer to this was something that I called a PCL (Personal Customization List), but really starts to go off-topic. It accounts for a lot of other customizations than just an address book for your friends. I can explain more if people need it.

[joshpurple]

(Thank You Jerky! Do you have that link to your idea in the Wiki on this? I tried searching the Wiki, but I've had no luck. It looks like a number of pages are 'on hold' /locked for future edits/updates to be made. If it takes extra time, or a bother, no worries, no problem -just curious , Thanks!)

[Maxwell]

Could you please discribe more of it?

I remember that post. Jerky very nice Idea, but could you describe soft classes a little bit more?

[Dwilf]

I think an open skill system is the way to go with any limitation imposed be purely lore related and not hardcoded.

E.g, Magic, joining the "School Majiki" is the safest and fastest way to learn magic. They teach you how to channel magic faster then you ever learn by another legal route. To be accepted into the ranks of the "Initiate Magi" one swears a magically binding oath that prohibits them from learning martial skills past Basic Combat level. The player is free to break this oath but doing so will see them expelled and outlawed. Likely to be hunted down and killed.

There could be many of this type of career options with various perks and drawbacks and within these careers various ranks/titles to be obtained. Think of things such as joining a military force, a thieves guild or any other organization. This would be a Soft Class system I guess but heavily tied into the lore and factions of the game world rather then the underlying mechanics. Two thieves in a city guild could have very different roles and titles and guilds in different cities could operate under totally different methods.

[Jaramar]

No classes. Classes, even soft classes, are evil and people will feel somewhat forced within thier limits. I _WANT_ to see the occasional mage deciding 'what the hell, I'll take a longer casting time to wear chainmail'. If we really want titles then the way to do it is essentially a skill check... that's to say you can use whatever title that you qualify for. This was done originally in SWG and was, I think, a good system.

For example, lets say you qualify for the title of Master Healer and use that as your title. Later on you also qualify as Master Archer and decide to change your title. What you do is select the title you wish to do and it will slowly replace your old title over the course of a couple days until eventually everyone now knows you as a Master Archer instead of a Master Healer. This could, in turn, fit in with Jerky's idea of personal information... people who know you have multiple titles can, perhaps, choose between them, though upon introduction people only learn those that you are either famous for or tell them.

Personal information could probably be stored client-side but that's another discussion entirely.

[Timmmy]

Sorry about the bit of delay in replying and also confusing my answer(I had a feeling I had done just that).The idea is that the preferred classless basis is maintained but also those who actually enjoy a class based system are accommodated.As with so much else in PW I think it would be a good idea to allow for many options than choose one over another.The guilds I mentioned are specialist guilds and in no way how I would like to see all guilds work(I've discussed my ideas on guilds else were).

Basically a player could:

-Perform a skill however they want getting better at it and any associated skills.For example a warrior training up his sword might train healing ability as they administer first aid to themself,getting better at applying bandages and being able to perform more complex recoveries.A mage training up their casting and alchemy as they pick crops for their reagents.

-Specialist guild is a guild were you ask to be trained as a warrior.Your practices improve your sword fighting more so than a normal warrior while at the same time isolating in what you improve at to what you are actually doing.It is not a case of join us and now your a warrior for life,it is simply practice your sword skill.It is not an end,just simply a different route you may choose you need to follow for a few days.Say a jack of all trades wishes to become master of sword,they would progress faster by joining a specialist guild and advancing the skill of their choice.However they may later decide their skill is now adequate and go back to their multi tasking.

The results of the two systems you would follow would be a more rounded individual for the non schooled one and a master of their art but very limited in all other areas.Thus the latter would probably rely more on partying to make up were they were lacking most.Also they could attain higher status ranks in the 'arenas' reflecting their specialized training route.

If I'm still not making sense just its closely linked to Dwilf's post above which I only just read!

Oh and Jaramar I agree with the title idea.The arenas mentioned above range from testing a farmers planting abilities to testing a summoners abilities and everything in between!The idea is you are rewarded title,one that you can choose to show and others(such as master assassin)that under most circumstances you're better off hiding.Also using a simple tab down bar you could choose what title is above your head.The title could also reflect deeds completed such as 'Dragon Slayer','Soul Destroyer' etc.

[Tecknowolf]

About skills and classes. If you want to be a bit more unique and still have something that the players would more then likely enjoy try combining several of the tried and true styles.

Since almost all fantasy has some ties to D&D, lets start with that. They had you start with a class, which had a set skill base, but then you could add in other skills that you thought would benefit you character or that you just wanted. But if the skills you chose where too far out of your characters field then it would cost you extra points to learn them, thus keeping characters from being too diverse.

Shadowbane had a plethora of skills and skill sets, but this wasn't managed very well.

The key reason why pre-defined classes work so well in MMO's is that the majority of players don't want to hassle with all the tweaking of skills, stats, and such. If you asked most MMO players to go through the AD&D character creation process they would revolt!

So, I have been working on this idea for a while and would be glad to share it with you.

You start with a variety of standard and non standard classes:
( It is my opinion that you give each character the same starting stats of health, str, int)

Warrior

Rogue

Ranger

Mage

Healer

From here you give the player a chance to envision their character. Using a skill tree system in a visual format similar to Diablo 2's would allow players to see what skills where available, in a tier'd format.


So starting with a warrior we imagine an armored fighter, who is to say that the fighter can't learn lock picking? Learn basic Rank 1 magic? Use a ranged weapon for a secondary combat skill?

Do you see what I am going for? You give the player a basic character "Template" to help them start, then let them flesh out the rest. Then for those whom want total character customization you give the option to start from scratch and create a totally unique character.

[Minthos]

I can't believe this subject hasn't been discussed in length previously on this very same forum.