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> PnC vs WASD
Abe
post May 4 2005, 10:21 AM
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Were we playing the same Wish? It had the BEST EVER PnC controls.. I went up stairs and inside buildings with no problems at all. I was very impressed by it and still would prefer it to crappy WASD.



Yes, I know we were playing the same WISH, I remember you. We are just different people, with different preferences. I think you misunderstood my post.


I did not say, "that moving inside buildings or upstairs? was faulty. I said that PnC required much more effort then I chose to use to explore as much as I have in WASD based games. WASD is just much more convenient and fluid. (By the way, it is nice to see you over at IRTH) I understand that PnC worked in WISH; I just think the best PnC leaves much to be desired when compared to WASD. WISH had enough good qualities for me ?to put up with PnC? not convert me to it. A choice of controls would be nice.
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StaticGrazerr
post Jul 7 2005, 10:41 PM
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Why is it that we cannot have a combination of the two systems? WASD and P&C? Is it too complicated?

Why is it that we cannot have it so that WASD is basic movement, moving the mouse is basic looking around, right clicking and holding could also be used for movement? A simple left click for attacking, and a simple right click for a weapons special attack ( Block, zoom for bows, charge for spells, things like that)

And as far as Small areas are concerned, why not offer a feature where Page Up and Page down dipict 1st Person or 3rd Person?

Now I liked UO's Omnnesant overview camera, however it probley wouldn't seem right with PW. Simply because you'd be missing a lot of the great terrain and beautiful building sides. How are we going to enjoy my nice tavern or pub if all I can see is the walls and floor? What about my chandaleer darnit!

Not only that, but the Onmnesant view ( as far as decoration goes) makes a kind of eye-trickary to objects around the player. What seems to be together is actuelly stacked, or turned in a specific way.

Games with a P&C normally ( or at least I think they do) Have a zoom feature on the keys above the arrow keys. And if they don't then by god they should! I personally prefer WASD above all others, but I'm a flexible gamer than can go with the flow.

And I'd like to see a combo system! Go Democracy! lolz


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exocrine
post Jul 7 2005, 11:04 PM
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I'm fairly sure that would be considered plain old WASD. The PnC vs WASD debate is about basic movement.


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emeraven
post Jul 10 2005, 04:29 PM
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Exo is probably right about this, most people think of Point and Click or the arrow keys (WASD too) as about basic movement.

But SG has a point, a combination might be good, Im not sure about the mouse look. Ive tried a few mouse look on various games and I found it took a lot of co ordination (I dont have much :P), than having one or the other.

For a long time I was sold on PnC as I could just use one hand to do most things, and it helps that I have a rollerball mouse (I spin the ball to look around :P). But stopping and thinking about it, there are some things the basic WASD can do better, placing a character step by step is much easier with WASD, first person can be easier. Mind you in Wish I found first person point and click to be pretty good.

On the whole I would like to see something that was a little flexable, than just offering one or other solution.


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StaticGrazerr
post Jul 10 2005, 06:48 PM
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I'd like to see some kind of combination, heck, or even the option to choose one fron another. A few clicks and clacks in the options menu, and BAM you're on WSAD. LoL, if we put the two together in the same game we really would find out what's better wouldn't we?

Or, we could just invent our own movement system. That'd be a pain in the Go-nads for sure.


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emeraven
post Jul 10 2005, 07:49 PM
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Hmm possibly a pain yes, though I have tossed around a few ideas in my head how to develop both methods a bit further than the basic.

Movement is currently on my list of things to work on. It ties in with targeting, battle and perhaps even training or npc interaction. So any thoughts, keep em coming.


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StaticGrazerr
post Jul 10 2005, 08:19 PM
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What about a movement system based off of the use of a 5 button Joysick?

Basic Movement my moving it around, use the 'optic button' as your view. ( Or vise-versa now that I think about it ) And the clicks can dipict what commands and all that. Leaving the entire keyboard for your left ( or right) hand to play with. Hur Hur hur!


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Areena
post Jan 22 2008, 04:47 PM
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i don't think this was mentioned anywhere... lots of verbage above, but if i recall correctly like over half of the complaints in the WISH forums were ppl complaining about PnC movement. I for one didn't have any complaints about because the overall game was worth learning how to deal with a new interface, not too mention the ease of long distance travel. but i think in terms of making a succesful game WASD is the way to go just because of overall more familiarity to playerbase

another thing is that PnC requires i can't even imagine how much more lead time to deal with pathing and the likes


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mortideus
post Jan 22 2008, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE(Areena @ Jan 22 2008, 05:47 PM) *

another thing is that PnC requires i can't even imagine how much more lead time to deal with pathing and the likes


WISH actually used a PnC system called PathENGINE, which actually is a really easy to use system that takes all the work out of implementing the paths. It also created less load on the servers, allowing more players on a single server.

I hated PnC until WISH did it, because it was never done correctly. At first, before I played WISH, I thought I would hate the PnC system, but after trying it, I was extremely glad they used PnC, just because I enjoyed the playstyle after getting used to it.

I do agree though, that most of the players want a WASD system, and despite my extreme love for WISH, think the game should include it as the major movement style. Having PnC as a secondary movement style would be nice though, for those of us odd players.


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Hankellin
post Jan 23 2008, 07:30 AM
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The only problem I had with the PnC movement was turning around in a doorway or small room to get to the trainer in the corner.


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njpaul
post Jan 23 2008, 08:46 PM
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I'm a fan of WASD ala Morrowind style (that is, first person or 3rd person camera). Since I've never played a 3D PnC game, I don't know how they work, but I feel you can show off the graphics better with WASD. I could be wrong though. I'm also a fan of gamepad support. I even bought an xbox 360 controller just to play around with.
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RicoSuave
post Feb 11 2008, 05:39 PM
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NJPaul,
I still have problems getting my horse to run in a straight line... or rather, getting it to turn away from a straight line when I need it to turn (and not run off a ledge!)
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Honis
post Feb 11 2008, 11:24 PM
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I love FFXI's keyboard only system.

I hardly ever get camera angle problems, typing messages is crazy easy and fast (which can be key when organizing things on the run), and with my wireless keyboard I can sit back relaxed (which is key to keeping players comfortable while playing [lead to longer play time?]).

It has 2 modes, mini-keyboard mode for labtops and full keyboard mode. Mini is WASD + numpad arrows, full makes all of the letters go directly to chat.

I run in mini mode with a full sized keyboard so I can switch off which hand I'm using to control direction (if I need more camera control WASD + arrow keys, In a party my left hand is pumping out macros and the right is camera and/or direction).

Needing to be at a mousable surface for Wish and EQ2 was really fraking annoying, no matter how well the mouse interface was implemented.

Square obviously put a lot of thought into the controls because of the limitations of the PS2 and made one of the best game interfaces in the process.


[edit] could just require hardware to be bought: http://www.virtusphere.com/
j/k


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Brotoi
post Mar 9 2008, 07:11 PM
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Hmm. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to weigh in with my own experiences:

Pristontale: I used arrow keys for everything, tab key for targetting
Lineage II: I used mouse for almost everything, function keys for spells/skills
RF Online: I used arrow keys inside cities, mouse out in the wilderness
CoH/CoV: I use arrow keys for movement, number keys for skills, numpad keys for special moves/combos, tab key for targetting, mouse for camera movement
Guild Wars: I used the arrow keys for movement, mouse for targeting
Dungeon Runners: I struggle with the movement system constantly. The camera control (or lack thereof) drives me batty.
Wish: I used the mouse for movement, number keys for skills/actions/swapping tools

I have never found a WASD system that I could use well. My left hand is not coordinated enough. However, for character movement I find the arrow keys very comfortable, being able to adjust camera angle with the mouse is a bonus, especially if it stays oriented on the character direction. Lineage II's PnC mouse movement is also nice, but the Wish system (probably due to the pathing engine) often did unexpected things so I was not surprised at the number of players who hated it. On more than one occasion I would click on a distant terrain feature only to have my character suddenly turn around and run back the way she had just come from because the pathing engine decided some distant obstacle could not be overcome without backtracking. Just about the only time the pathing engine ever chose a straight line was over bridges.

Oh, using the spacebar to jump (esp. in CoH/CoV) is a lifesaver.

All in all, CoH/CoV has the most comfortable input system for me. It did take some getting used to, and once in awhile I still mix up the "Enter chat" function which makes my character do wacky things because I think I'm typing chat lines when I'm really typing commmands. All in all, though, the level of customization is superb, which means that my daily input system is now a combination of many different preferences developed from many different games:

Arrow keys are movement
Mouse is camera movement (mouse keys for turning character/not turning character, scroll wheel for zoom)
Number keys (keyboard top) fire off most common skills
Alt+Number keys (keyboard top) fire off second tier skills
Ctrl+Number keys (keyboard top) fire off seldom-used but necessary skills
Numpad keys use keybinds to hold combo skills in proper sequence
Alt+h toggles the user interface for perfect screenshots (a habit acquired in Lineage II)
Alt+x exits the game (an old DOS standard for user software)
Shift+function keys changes costume (would be used for changing weapons, armor, etc. in other games)
F1-F5 handles "inspirations" (would be potions in other games)
F6-F10 handles chat macros (Run!, Help!, personal battle cry, etc)

Some of these (like using number keys for skills) have pretty much become industry standards. Being able to use the F# keys for potions would enable a player to easily control both combat skills and potion usage with very little learning. Having a keybind system that supports complex customization schemes (and automatically remembers them when a player changes characters, logs in and out, etc.), would then allow the players to either keep our simple system, or adapt the user interface to whatever system they are comfortable with. Last but not least, a consistent tiered system for number key and function key control (1,Alt+1,Shift+1,Ctrl+1, F1, Alt+F1,Shift+F1,Ctrl+F1, etc.), especially if the system is easily customized, will solve almost any interface problem that crops up.

For a default system my personal preference would be:

Number keys for early skills, Alt+Number keys for additional skills, Ctrl+Number keys for later skills
Shift+Number keys for changing weapons/armor/tools
F1 to F10 keys for potions and emote animations
Shift+F1 to F10 keys for chat macros and additional emote animations
Tab for nearest enemy target
Shift+Tab for nearest friendly target
Ctrl+Tab for moving through available enemy targets (nearest ---> most distant)
Alt+Tab for moving through available friendly targets (starting with team members nearest ---> farthest, then moving through other nearby friendlies)
Spacebar for jumping/climbing

This system would be easy to learn, easy to use, and if it were supported by allowing advanced players to rebind any key to any skill/item/function they like, then it would also be endlessly customizable.

In my opinion the worst possible design would be the one most common in the industry: using 1-0 (or F1 to F10) for two or three basic skills, two or three basic emotes (stand/sit, walk/run, fight/flee), and two or three potions all at the same time with very little flexibility as the player advances through the game.
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StaticGrazer
post Jul 14 2008, 02:57 PM
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More options is probley going to be best.


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