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> The Possible Overview of Project Wish (So Far)
Jaramar
post Sep 23 2006, 08:18 PM
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Well, this thread probably won't get into too much detail too early but I thought I might put up the ideas of the community, let us see how we can link them together, and perhaps have a rough guideline on what we are looking at in the future. This may be an excersize in futility but it's always nice to have a plan.

Do note that I _WANT_ people to respond and help me hammer things out... then we'll see if we can find a basic idea for the game to begin upon and go on working on the details from there.

Once again, a work in progress.

Skills:
-Skills, it is mostly agreed, will only level up through usage of that skill. We will abandon most of the constraints of a regular leveling system and just use that instead. A person may learn whatever skills to whatever extent that they wish, though they would decay slowly over time.

For so many skill points earned in a certain skill (slightly randomized like 45-55 for a skill typically known at 50 to keep things interesting) you could use points to learn an ability set... though the numbers and ways to get them are still under discussion. Once you hit the max amount of abilities you can learn you can start earning re-spec points to let you keep trying new things. Skills you have an ability point in may or may not decay (to be decided).

Races:
-Can't say much here although we know humans are in and I'm trying my damnedest to get Gnomes there too. I'm thinking that any race can use any skill and be just as proficient in it, but some races may earn the skill points faster due to thier natural ability to use said skill. (The reason I'm thinking we might want to stay away from bonuses to the skills themselves is that it would make there be certain Uber Templates... and we want a nice good cross section of classes in each race.)

Combat:
-Personally I'd love to see full scale action, but failing that I'd love to see people both and foot and on horseback... but to find ways to make neither overpowering. People on horseback are quicker and have more power to thier strike when in melee, however they are subject to restrictions... mages can only cast when thier horse is standing still and has a failure chance, archers would take a small penalty if firing from a standing horse and a BIG penalty for a moving horse, melee works pretty much as normal however... this prevents kiting I hope. Certain simple spells, abilities with a polearm weapon (note: this is ALL polearms should be used for... they suck in close combat but excel at pissing off things that are mounted), or even a lucky shot from an archer could dismount them forcing them to either take time to get back on or to fight on foot as well.

Magic:
-We haven't touched this too much yet. Personally I'd love to see people having to research spells and use spell components. Sort of an Asheron's Call 1 system. Being a mage should be hard and yet HIGHLY rewarding.

Death:
-You die and go to an afterlife based off your choices in life. There are several ways to come back, some easier, some harder, some even a bit risky. Probably no permadeath.

Guilds:
-Possibly of two types, crafting and combat. Each of these can join up into Factions.

Factions:
-Combat factions are created by combat guilds. These are large organizations and when your faction joins one you become PvP enabled to anyone you are at war with. While at war you can attack eachother and also set up seiges of eachother's cities. Non-factional personel will be removed from town during the seige in order to help fight against spying.

-Crafting factions are created by crafting guilds. They can be based either in an NPC town or a player town that is willing to support them (and, in turn, be supported by them... never underestimate crafters for they win wars). During a seige a crafter can enter a town they are a part of assuming they are not also in the enemy Faction's combat guild, however you will be flagged for PvP.

Land and Resource Control:
-When you make a town with your guild (so long as you are in a combat enabled Faction) you get a small zone of control. This will grow as you upgrade the city a bit and lets you build various structures on the frontier such as an iron mine over a vein that used to be worked by hand. All non-enemies can use these and will receive 1/2 to 3/4 the yield, the other portion going to the guild running the area. People from the town or allied will be able to use it at full. (This is an example.)

PvP:
-This will only truely effect those that join a guild in a combat faction. When you 'die' (that's to say you've been killed and you don't want to stick around for a rez) you will appear in a hospital/church of sorts and be unable to leave "until your wounds are tended" (5 to 10 minutes?) in order to prevent people from rushing out and dying over and over so less zerg tactics. It'll also give the enemy time to expand thier attack on the weakened position in a battle.

Seiges:
-These will not be cheap. Infact expect to spend twice the resources and manpower to destroy or take over a city as you do to build one. Factions should be big enough that there should maybe be a few seiges per week across the entire front. When you take over you can either capture or raze the city. (Capturing means you get the city intact and some loot, razing means you get some loot and lose the city.)

Crafting:
-So much I could say here. Essentially though the best items should be crafted items.

All of these aspects will need thier own posts once we have things sorted to our liking. Enjoy!


--------------------
-Jaramar Hillslayer
Insane Gnome

"'Live and let live' is my philosophy these days," I remarked.
Random chuckled.
"What a quaint notion. I'll bet it will last all of five minutes."

-Nine Princes in Amber
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StaticGrazerr
post Sep 23 2006, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE(Jaramar @ Sep 23 2006, 02:18 PM)
Well, this thread probably won't get into too much detail too early but I thought I might put up the ideas of the community, let us see how we can link them together, and perhaps have a rough guideline on what we are looking at in the future. This may be an excersize in futility but it's always nice to have a plan.

Do note that I _WANT_ people to respond and help me hammer things out... then we'll see if we can find a basic idea for the game to begin upon and go on working on the details from there.

Once again, a work in progress.

Skills:
-Skills, it is mostly agreed, will only level up through usage of that skill. We will abandon most of the constraints of a regular leveling system and just use that instead. A person may learn whatever skills to whatever extent that they wish, though they would decay slowly over time.

For so many skill points earned in a certain skill (slightly randomized like 45-55 for a skill typically known at 50 to keep things interesting) you could use points to learn an ability set... though the numbers and ways to get them are still under discussion. Once you hit the max amount of abilities you can learn you can start earning re-spec points to let you keep trying new things. Skills you have an ability point in may or may not decay (to be decided).

Races:
-Can't say much here although we know humans are in and I'm trying my damnedest to get Gnomes there too. I'm thinking that any race can use any skill and be just as proficient in it, but some races may earn the skill points faster due to thier natural ability to use said skill. (The reason I'm thinking we might want to stay away from bonuses to the skills themselves is that it would make there be certain Uber Templates... and we want a nice good cross section of classes in each race.)

Combat:
-Personally I'd love to see full scale action, but failing that I'd love to see people both and foot and on horseback... but to find ways to make neither overpowering. People on horseback are quicker and have more power to thier strike when in melee, however they are subject to restrictions... mages can only cast when thier horse is standing still and has a failure chance, archers would take a small penalty if firing from a standing horse and a BIG penalty for a moving horse, melee works pretty much as normal however... this prevents kiting I hope. Certain simple spells, abilities with a polearm weapon (note: this is ALL polearms should be used for... they suck in close combat but excel at pissing off things that are mounted), or even a lucky shot from an archer could dismount them forcing them to either take time to get back on or to fight on foot as well.

Magic:

Death:

Guilds:

Factions:

Land and Resource Control:

PvP:

Seiges:

Crafting:
*



Please note that none of this is offical, just some things I've brought up before and like to re-idderate.

Crafting: Well, this is my area...of LOVE! So I'll tack something on here!

First I'd like to start off with your basic crafting skills, that almost all RPGs have, and few have done well.

Smithing - Can at its core, be broken down into two catagories: Weapon Smithing, and Armor Smithing. Metal armors would mostly fall souly under smithing, while hide based armors would fall more under tailoring. IE. Chain mail is mostly smithing skill, as a leather chest piece would be tailoring; but a Studded leather vest would probley rely off of skills in tailoring, smithing, and tinkering ( since you'd need to be able to make the studds for em. ^,^

Carpentry - Of course, furnature and wooden tools ( such as shovels and shields..yes wooden shields), but we cannot forget the all important, construction of buildings.

Tailoring - Simply the making of clothes, and weaving of cloths for fabrics. Cotton, hide into leather, and the sort.

I'll touch this up later. ^,^ MORE to come!~


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Jaramar
post Sep 23 2006, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE(StaticGrazerr @ Sep 23 2006, 08:19 PM)
Please note that none of this is offical, just some things I've brought up before and like to re-idderate.

Crafting: Well, this is my area...of LOVE! So I'll tack something on here!

First I'd like to start off with your basic crafting skills, that almost all RPGs have, and few have done well.

Smithing - Can at its core, be broken down into two catagories: Weapon Smithing, and Armor Smithing. Metal armors would mostly fall souly under smithing, while hide based armors would fall more under tailoring. IE. Chain mail is mostly smithing skill, as a leather chest piece would be tailoring; but a Studded leather vest would probley rely off of skills in tailoring, smithing, and tinkering ( since you'd need to be able to make the studds for em. ^,^

Carpentry - Of course, furnature and wooden tools ( such as shovels and shields..yes wooden shields), but we cannot forget the all important, construction  of buildings.

Tailoring - Simply the making of clothes, and weaving of cloths for fabrics. Cotton, hide into leather, and the sort.

I'll touch this up later. ^,^ MORE to come!~
*



Hehe, this fits better in the skills post... or better yet a full on crafting post. This thread is a general overview of major components. Each will then get it's own super-thread which could break into even smaller discussions.


--------------------
-Jaramar Hillslayer
Insane Gnome

"'Live and let live' is my philosophy these days," I remarked.
Random chuckled.
"What a quaint notion. I'll bet it will last all of five minutes."

-Nine Princes in Amber
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joshpurple
post Sep 23 2006, 09:35 PM
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It's true, each of those areas could be a thread, but it's nice to have an overview too smile.gif .

I have no idea, but I'm guessing combat will be one of the first areas to work on?

Or, maybe that would be better as a question, -which of those areas would make the most sense to work-out first? (Since I can see how one of those areas could then 'lead,' set precedent for another area).

Example: If Magical combat gets looked at first, it would give an idea on what it would be like to gather components for spells, which would influence gathering components for crafting, etc.

Or, maybe those areas should be kept as separate as possible?


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Jaramar
post Sep 23 2006, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE(joshpurple @ Sep 23 2006, 08:35 PM)
It's true, each of those areas could be a thread, but it's nice to have an overview too smile.gif .

I have no idea, but I'm guessing combat will be one of the first areas to work on? 

Or, maybe that would be better as a question, -which of those areas would make the most sense to work-out first? (Since I can see how one of those areas could then 'lead,' set precedent for another area).

Example:  If Magical combat gets looked at first, it would give an idea on what it would be like to gather components for spells, which would influence gathering components for crafting, etc. 

Or, maybe those areas should be kept as separate as possible?
*



Personally I want everything intertwined. It makes for a much more interesting play experiance. Where I would start is "Skills" and "Crafting" however. Then we'd move to "Magic" and figure out research and components. Finally we'd be able to do "Combat" which would be followed by "Guilds", "PvP", and "Seiges". Finally we'd tackle "Death" and "Races" since they will not have _TOO_ much effect on things in the normal world. We'll work on all of these at once of course, but main focuses should be roughly in that order.


--------------------
-Jaramar Hillslayer
Insane Gnome

"'Live and let live' is my philosophy these days," I remarked.
Random chuckled.
"What a quaint notion. I'll bet it will last all of five minutes."

-Nine Princes in Amber
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joshpurple
post Sep 23 2006, 10:06 PM
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Just paraphrasing smile.gif , (because I like your thinking Jaramar!)

So you would go for (just to start with the top four):

Skills
Crafting
Magic
Combat

And you mention that is in 'rough order.'

Such that your Skills would be the basis for affecting the values of almost any actions the player takes in-game?

Example: Your Skill in 'Offensive Magic' > Affects your Crafting Skill in Carpentry (to make a wand, a staff, etc. -building/gather component) > Affects your Magic (Casting of spell ?) > Affects how fast (example, combat speed) you get to strike?

Kinda' deal?

So players would first think of what Skills they would want, then they would figure out what Crafts would work well with those Skills, then what Crafts might lend themselves to Magic, and finally the benefit of 'choosing wisely' to see the effect of how their selection works in combat?

Which is cool smile.gif . I have nothing against linking these areas together.

Would there by any notion to first picking a craft, and then getting a skill, or skills, from that craft?


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Jaramar
post Sep 23 2006, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE(joshpurple @ Sep 23 2006, 09:06 PM)
Just paraphrasing smile.gif , (because I like your thinking Jaramar!)

So you would go for (just to start with the top four):

Skills
Crafting
Magic
Combat

And you mention that is in 'rough order.'

Such that your Skills would be the basis for affecting the values of almost any actions the player takes in-game? 

Example:  Your Skill in 'Offensive Magic' > Affects your Crafting Skill in Carpentry (to make a wand, a staff, etc. -building/gather component) > Affects your Magic (Casting of spell ?) > Affects how fast (example, combat speed) you get to strike?

Kinda' deal?

So players would first think of what Skills they would want, then they would figure out what Crafts would work well with those Skills, then what Crafts might lend themselves to Magic, and finally the benefit of 'choosing wisely' to see the effect of how their selection works in combat?

Which is cool smile.gif .  I have nothing against linking these areas together. 

Would there by any notion to first picking a craft, and then getting a skill, or skills, from that craft?
*



Well, lets take a look at magic. Depending on what you do with it you can buff, fight, craft, or simply use it for conveniance. How well it does these things is based off skills.

Firstly, magic needs components. These could be both random drops, bought off merchants, and harvested. Some more advanced components may need to be crafted.

With these components, a few clues, some guesswork, and some trial and error you can figure out how to cast a spell. Once you cast it it will be added to your spellbook.

From here the possibilities branch off. Will you enchant arrows to burst and do area damage? Will you use your new power to increase your skill? Perhaps you just want to use it to portal or run quickly to a new town? Or maybe you just want to blow things up or summon a creature to blow them up for you? You could even put these together... creating wands and amulets of power. But it all branches off the skills and crafts section. Ditto for an archer using alchemical arrows or, if I have my way, for _ANYONE_ interested in using non-base equipment at all. Some bosses may have good stuff, but it will all be stuff players can craft as well.

Once we have that and got an idea of what magic and crafts such as alchemy are capable of... it's combat time. Once those are complete we'll have the idea of the general feel of the game... for some people those will be the only areas they care about... essentially the core of the systems for the game to be played will be done and ready.


--------------------
-Jaramar Hillslayer
Insane Gnome

"'Live and let live' is my philosophy these days," I remarked.
Random chuckled.
"What a quaint notion. I'll bet it will last all of five minutes."

-Nine Princes in Amber
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xardy
post Sep 24 2006, 04:52 AM
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For combat, when charging with a horse you can't turn fast, people on foot can simply do a sidestep to avoid being hit by the horse or the blade from the guy riding it. I don't want to see a horse to be able to turn fast when charging.
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Radiostorm
post Sep 26 2006, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE
Seiges:
-These will not be cheap. Infact expect to spend twice the resources and manpower to destroy or take over a city as you do to build one. Factions should be big enough that there should maybe be a few seiges per week across the entire front. When you take over you can either capture or raze the city. (Capturing means you get the city intact and some loot, razing means you get some loot and lose the city.)

Siege warfare is tricky. I like the idea that it takes twice the effort to level a city than it does to build one. It's important to maintain that discrepancy or else players will simply jack the cities of others insted of developing their own.

On the same note, I think it should be relatively easy to rebuild a city after it has been sieged. One idea is to have buildings divided into two parts: the stone foundation and the wooden framework. When a building is leveled, the framework is demolished but the foundation remains largely intact. The building can be rebuilt at a fraction of it's original cost (something in the 30%-20% range) on top of that old foundation. This would encourage less conservative raiding as player's wouldn't always have to start from scratch.


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Pandra
post Sep 27 2006, 07:34 AM
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Ok, I haven't read through all the related posts that I wanted too yet, but I think I've gotten through the majority of them. Im gonna copy and paste Jaramar's Over views here though and add to it. One because I have time constraints now and two because I think it'll help keep things tider.

Skills:
-Skills, it is mostly agreed, will only level up through usage of that skill. We will abandon most of the constraints of a regular leveling system and just use that instead. A person may learn whatever skills to whatever extent that they wish, though they would decay slowly over time.

For so many skill points earned in a certain skill (slightly randomized like 45-55 for a skill typically known at 50 to keep things interesting) you could use points to learn an ability set... though the numbers and ways to get them are still under discussion. Once you hit the max amount of abilities you can learn you can start earning re-spec points to let you keep trying new things. Skills you have an ability point in may or may not decay (to be decided).


smile.gif I like the idea of skills being leveled up through useage, and that level saying up through useage or decaying slowly with lack of use. I just want to ask for clarity however. When you say people can use points to learn a skill set, you mean at the apprentice level right?

Races:
-Can't say much here although we know humans are in and I'm trying my damnedest to get Gnomes there too. I'm thinking that any race can use any skill and be just as proficient in it, but some races may earn the skill points faster due to thier natural ability to use said skill. (The reason I'm thinking we might want to stay away from bonuses to the skills themselves is that it would make there be certain Uber Templates... and we want a nice good cross section of classes in each race.)

biggrin.gif I acctually reall like that races haven't been dicided on yet and I like how Josh phrashed it in another post. Instead of saying we offer x number of races we should say we have x number avaible and are adding more in time. Ok I butchered that quote but it's early.

Combat:
-Personally I'd love to see full scale action, but failing that I'd love to see people both and foot and on horseback... but to find ways to make neither overpowering. People on horseback are quicker and have more power to thier strike when in melee, however they are subject to restrictions... mages can only cast when thier horse is standing still and has a failure chance, archers would take a small penalty if firing from a standing horse and a BIG penalty for a moving horse, melee works pretty much as normal however... this prevents kiting I hope. Certain simple spells, abilities with a polearm weapon (note: this is ALL polearms should be used for... they suck in close combat but excel at pissing off things that are mounted), or even a lucky shot from an archer could dismount them forcing them to either take time to get back on or to fight on foot as well.

dry.gif Honestly, I wouldn't make combat a priority right at first. Mostly because no matter how much time you invest in it, people are going to demand changes in the combat system over time. Why invest alot of your development resources to something that's in all honestly going to be the most fluid and changable part of the game. People expect and in many cases demand to see combat systems change over time.

Magic:
-We haven't touched this too much yet. Personally I'd love to see people having to research spells and use spell components. Sort of an Asheron's Call 1 system. Being a mage should be hard and yet HIGHLY rewarding.

biggrin.gif Yes, being a mage should have draw backs, should be a difficult class with big pay off. Meaning if I'm a high level mage and I fireball something, that something had better die unless it has fire resistance. I don't like the other game's crappy fireballs that just widdle away at mob health points. It makes me think those mages didn't study enough in wizard school.

Death:
-You die and go to an afterlife based off your choices in life. There are several ways to come back, some easier, some harder, some even a bit risky. Probably no permadeath.

blink.gif I think the devs have a route they want to take with death. But some very vaild points were brought up in the other threads concerning death. How do you justify dieing several times a day? I just don't think you can. I think there's going to need to be a knock out system and a death system in place to keep from breaking immersion. The lack of perma death makes me a little sad, but I know it's something of a small nitch thing. Though, perhaps giving players the option at character creation of chooseing normal play or perma death play... unless that would be a total coding nightmare. Death or knock, either way, is something that does need to be worked out and worked out well before release

Guilds:
-Possibly of two types, crafting and combat. Each of these can join up into Factions.

dry.gif I'm still reading through all the guild stuff. But I'm not liking most of what I've seen so far. Well, I do like the idea of combat guilds and crafting guilds. I assume that means players will have the option of being part of both a combat guild and a crafting guild. What I don't like is all the talk of only combat guilds being able to own towns. It may not seem like it, but it's putting the combat guild on 'better' footing than the crafting guilds. Keep in mind, some people are not combatents, they are crafters and they are going to see stuff like that as demeaning. And don't give me the "but the combat guilds protect the lands" lame ass argument either. The crafter are going to see themselves as the ones who are working the land, raising crops, mining, chopping wood, ect. Their hard work should intitle them to land ownership just as much as someone else's ability to defend that land.

So combat guilds should be able to attract crafting guilds to support their cities. Well the reverse should also work. Crafting guilds should be able to attract combat guilds to defend their cities.


Factions:
-Combat factions are created by combat guilds. These are large organizations and when your faction joins one you become PvP enabled to anyone you are at war with. While at war you can attack eachother and also set up seiges of eachother's cities. Non-factional personel will be removed from town during the seige in order to help fight against spying.

-Crafting factions are created by crafting guilds. They can be based either in an NPC town or a player town that is willing to support them (and, in turn, be supported by them... never underestimate crafters for they win wars). During a seige a crafter can enter a town they are a part of assuming they are not also in the enemy Faction's combat guild, however you will be flagged for PvP.

Land and Resource Control:
-When you make a town with your guild (so long as you are in a combat enabled Faction) you get a small zone of control. This will grow as you upgrade the city a bit and lets you build various structures on the frontier such as an iron mine over a vein that used to be worked by hand. All non-enemies can use these and will receive 1/2 to 3/4 the yield, the other portion going to the guild running the area. People from the town or allied will be able to use it at full. (This is an example.)

PvP:
-This will only truely effect those that join a guild in a combat faction. When you 'die' (that's to say you've been killed and you don't want to stick around for a rez) you will appear in a hospital/church of sorts and be unable to leave "until your wounds are tended" (5 to 10 minutes?) in order to prevent people from rushing out and dying over and over so less zerg tactics. It'll also give the enemy time to expand thier attack on the weakened position in a battle.

Seiges:
-These will not be cheap. Infact expect to spend twice the resources and manpower to destroy or take over a city as you do to build one. Factions should be big enough that there should maybe be a few seiges per week across the entire front. When you take over you can either capture or raze the city. (Capturing means you get the city intact and some loot, razing means you get some loot and lose the city.)

unsure.gif I can only guess that seige warfare will not only take up alot of ingame resources, but alot of the servers resources. I know we're wanting to push the envelop but that might be a tad too ambitious. Outside of DAoC I don't think anyone really been able to address the server crushing lag that usually results from any type of mass global combat.

Crafting:
-So much I could say here. Essentially though the best items should be crafted items.

laugh.gif I am sure there is going to be much said on crafting in time <3 and many many threads that break into smaller threads. Crafting however, needs to be something that eveolves over time as well. Not that how it's done needs to change, but in that players will always be looking for new recipes, news ways of useing old resources.

All of these aspects will need thier own posts once we have things sorted to our liking. Enjoy!
*

[/quote]


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Radiostorm
post Sep 27 2006, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE
Death:
-You die and go to an afterlife based off your choices in life. There are several ways to come back, some easier, some harder, some even a bit risky. Probably no permadeath.

I've never been a big fan of the concept of death in MMOs. I like to pretend I'm a hero, and heroes don't die. It would be interesting if we experimented with some sort of incapacitation or knock-out mechanic instead of having players getting "killed" then miraculously ressurected every other day.

QUOTE
The lack of perma death makes me a little sad, but I know it's something of a small nitch thing.

Permadeath is a good way of cutting your prospective player base in half. I know a couple of people who really dig it, but the vast majority of players condemn the mechanic. It leaves no margin for error on the player's part, or on our part really.


--------------------
I filled a plastic bag
With everything I wrote
And threw it off a bridge
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Matlush
post Sep 27 2006, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE
Guilds:
-Possibly of two types, crafting and combat. Each of these can join up into Factions.

Factions:
-Combat factions are created by combat guilds. These are large organizations and when your faction joins one you become PvP enabled to anyone you are at war with. While at war you can attack eachother and also set up seiges of eachother's cities. Non-factional personel will be removed from town during the seige in order to help fight against spying.


I'm personally against guilds that are divided into something. Makind the same guild system for all of them would probably result in larger variety of guilds, but yet there could be some self sufficient ones.

Yet again it would be fun to make no hierarchy limit. Faction could form out from guilds. Factions could form something bigger, and that bigger thing could create yet bigger thing, maybe a kingdom at end ?

And I'm against the hero spawning thing... Maybe even for permadeath ? Permadeath + death at old age = no powerleveling (powerskilling here), because we all know we would die at the end. But still it's a thing to be tested, but i think it would add some fun to the game.


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Jaramar
post Sep 27 2006, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE(Matlush @ Sep 27 2006, 09:12 AM)
I'm personally against guilds that are divided into something. Makind the same guild system for all of them would probably result in larger variety of guilds, but yet there could be some self sufficient ones.

Yet again it would be fun to make no hierarchy limit. Faction could form out from guilds. Factions could form something bigger, and that bigger thing could create yet bigger thing, maybe a kingdom at end ?

And I'm against the hero spawning thing... Maybe even for permadeath ? Permadeath + death at old age = no powerleveling (powerskilling here), because we all know we would die at the end. But still it's a thing to be tested, but i think it would add some fun to the game.
*



The reason for the dual guilds (which I'm iffy about myself) is to make PvP an option and not a requirement. I suppose you could call the normal guilds "guilds" and the combat/PvP ones Allegiances.

The majority of gamers aren't yet coming to terms with Perma-death, however there are some ideas on the Skills thread to prvent overpowering characters.


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penguin42
post Oct 6 2006, 01:32 PM
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There's one big omission in this list, and that's a quest/live content system!

Most of the items listed are good gameplay mechanics to work out, but they all exist in one form or another in the current crop of MMORPGs. The big feature of Wish that was going to be revolutionary was a system of dynamic, live content, where quests were constantly changing as the game world evolved, and there was to be no unrealistic static or instanced content in the game world.

I think that in order to make this idea work, a lot of brain power needs to be concentrated on how such a system could possibly work, and that thinking has to start as soon as possible. It's easy to say "well, we'll get the basics down first and work on the more complex stuff later" -- but every feature in the game, even the basics, has to be designed from the beginning with this global live-content system in mind, simply because it has the potential to interact in very complex ways with every other aspect of gameplay.

For example, a key component of such a live content system would be that the game should be able to "detect" major events that are caused by the players, and be able to update quests and NPC behavior to take these events into account. Examples of such events are: faction wars, cities being built, cities being destroyed, etc.

Also, to maintain immersion, a lot of the PvP content being proposed here (such as building and destroying cities) should also be applicable to PvE content. Not only should you be able to attempt a seige of a player-built city, but you should be able to attempt to seige an NPC city that came with the game world!

Suddenly there are lots of things to worry about to make sure the game stays balanced, for example, making sure NPC cities can defend themselves adequately, having the live content system be able to direct NPCs to react realistically to their city being attacked/destroyed, and making sure player strength and advancement is moderated so that you can't have a guild of power players going around and taking over the entire world!

It should work other ways, too, such as NPCs starting and building new cities, NPCs being able to seige and attack player cities, or NPCs attacking NPC cities (ie, an invasion scenario).

And this isn't even getting into having a system robust enough to constantly form new player quests and content for the rest of the gameworld at the same time...

So yeah. A very important thing to start concentrating on early in development is just exactly how this live content deal will work, how quests will be generated/updated, and how it will interact with any other gameplay systems proposed.


Some other things I would suggest: for such large undertakings as building a city, there should be realistic requirements for getting it done. You can't just go "I have this much gold, click, poof! a city is being built." There need to be ways to get the vast material resources transported to your location, and get NPC (or PC) labor to help in the process. Think of the possibilities: you have to quarry stone from a far away canyon to build your keep, so you need to have a long supply caravan transporting the materials to your build site. Your enemies could attack that caravan and disrupt your supply, requiring you to hire help (oh! a player-generated quest?) to protect the caravan and defeat those attempting to disrupt it.

Not to mention other effects this might have... by buying so much stone, you raise the price of stone in the dynamic economy. Suddenly being a stonecutter becomes a much more attractive profession.


Finally, I would suggest not implementing such a restrictive guild system, where you're in one kind of guild or another and each guild has specialized abilities and options. Rather, I would build the guild system out of a more general system that allows players to group together and organize themselves for any purpose. This system could scale from small parties sharing loot on a dungeon run, up to vast armies laying seige. It could also be for groups such as city governments, virtuous orders dedicated to protecting citizens from danger, a group of merchants and traders who distribute goods throughout the land, a team who wants to rebuild the city walls... you get the point. smile.gif


Just some thoughts. I should stop for now smile.gif
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Pandra
post Oct 6 2006, 06:13 PM
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We haven't really touched on quests or live content because well... the game is really early in development. There isn't even a lot of lore or cities or even races and factions decided on yet to base quests and live content off of. To really break away from other games and keep player immersion high you really need good, strong lore in place first.

Once we have that, the quests should be rather easy. They'll be teh part of the story that players get to interact with. wink.gif And what keeps the story moving along.


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Timmmy
post Oct 6 2006, 09:59 PM
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Just playing catch up a bit Jaramar and gotta say some nice ideas.Totally agree that skills should be usage only,not putting points into a skill you haven't being training.If you guys are looking for something really original then why not try some zone model as opposed to simple as you fill bar you get better at what you're doing.This is a little hard to explain but something like:

You fight a lot with your sword so naturally:
Your sword skill goes up(the skills you use,maybe acquiring passive skills as you improve such as critical attacks,parries etc(these are seperate to useable skills such as 'fury blades').
Your endurance goes up,this endurance also effecting say if one day you changed your job to a farmer.
Your strength goes up,so you can carry more etc but also hit harder.
Your dexterity goes up

You fight a lot with your huge war axe.
Your axe skill increases
Your endurance goes up
Your strength goes up
Your dexterity goes up

Now the trick is balancing the rate.For example the swordsman dexterity would rise faster then the axe mans,while the axe mans strength would rise faster.This is simply as the swordsman both attacks and defends,remaining light footed and engaging their enemy.On the other hand the axe man simply attacks their enemy,relying on the massive damage dealt by their axe being delivered with as much force as possible to stop them being hurt.

Thus their rates would be different.The trick is that no matter what skill you use you'll find its use not only improves what you're doing but also affects if you went and did other stuff.For example the swordsman farming,the axeman felling trees or a mage switching to a different style.Similarly if for example the axeman changed to a warhammer although they would be starting off at the basic level of skill of warhammer the rest of their character is well suited to its use(mainly their strength).





As for races Dwarves please.They bring a lot to a game especially if some system for design is in the game.For example finding for wheels,some other bits and making a battlechariot(bad example).




I like the idea of massive scale warfare,if player numbers insufficient then pumped up with NPC military forces from different kingdoms.Would be cool having a guild prepare for war riding out of their town,the king leading followed by body guards and then the others,knights,healers(magic and material),magickers,supplies.

Smaller parties can of course group together but maybe they could fall under larger groups with the higher levels issuing commands.So for example a Major gives seperate orders to party captains under their command.Then a group of majors answer to powers higher up and so on.Effectively one would still fight like a party but with far more depth.For example an army could actually send its cavalry forward to flank their opponents,move its infantry in formation and deliver its offensive abilites(mages/catapults/flying troops) were they'll count most.And the system to allow this is very simple,allow higher ranks to make enemies.They R click an enemy group or just a piece of ground and select a number.Once all are filled they issue orders to troops by selecting the captain(in their party group)and pressing the desired number.The target becomes marked on captains and their partys screen as an NPC quest would be and thus huge operations with hundreds of PCs can be well organised.

It also prevents traditional spam commanders normally have to deal with in MMO's with 20 people shouting at them were am I going,which way to my party etc etc.It also gives a huge usefullness to commanders with flying transport as they can easily overview the area and give the best decisions.It more importantly gives a very important reason to kill your opponents general.Note that a troop can of course ignore their majors orders but will suffer for it.Also this will not be necessary until there are a good few players in game although I can see it being very useful if the king promotes players to allow them give orders to more people and save the chat.

As for easily dismounting enemy players not too sure about that.I'd say instead simply stick with the negative effects you've mentioned although maybe have them only slight problems.For example although a mounted archer may have a difficulty firing while riding many peoples were born and raised in the saddle so to speak and could shoot just as well on and off it.Main problem being in a saddle should be if you charge a polearm(as you mentioned),if they can secure their weapon before you get to them they can cause massive damage to you and your mount.I like xardys turning idea,maybe an ability to trample foes by riding through with a party of lancers although this could be countered painfully with a party of polearms as above?




I have already posted my hopes for Magic in the magic thread.Pretty much you start as everyone else and the more you lean towards magic the more you can do.Maybe make the first magical ability(which should be available to all)something like a spark or a flamer sprite but more general.Then the more powerful you become the more opens up to you and the more routes you can take.





Death should be simple.You die!Basically when you die you wake up on a surgeons/magickers table with some text like we almost lost you or something.Reason Id say no to afterlife is if you've an hour to play a day you dont want to waste it to get back to were you were the day before.Also not a fan of permadeath for the same reason.





Id lie to see guilds as a group of just anyone who wants to join it and is accepted by the guildmaster.Unlike player ownership a guild can open up their buildings to all members of that guild so anyone can feel welcome.For example a guild might have several buildings, a furnace building,a practice hall and a gem sanctuary.Thus you could be many different type of player in a guild and still find a spot for yourself.Also fr example if a large number of miners joined the guild could decide to go on and set up a tool smith for them.Alternatively the miners could donate their mine to the guild and the guild could pay to have it upgraded with mine carts etc.Higher level guilds will in fact struggle to survive with simply one type of player in them.

The resource collecters in the guild give materials for guild crafters(miners/lumberjacks etc),food(from hunters/farmers etc)and cash by selling materials.Crafters make goods they can sell or give to guild members and most importantly the fighting force extend the guilds boundaries by exerting their power so theres more room for the guild collectors to work.

More importantly they also complete the kings quests(guild quests) which grants the guild bonuses such as cheaper prices in the kings shops and special items.They are also the ones who deal with guild rivalry such as others moving on their resources,memebers being attacked or their caravans being raided.Thus they have the ability to declare guild war(as well as kill on sight on individuals(enemy list))and enforce it.Guild NPCs and all members would then hostile to each other.Thus within a peaceful kingdom two guilds seperate but working for the kingdom could be at war!





Land and resource control sounds cool.Pretty much the same idea I'd like to see(except mine was covered in NPCs,I like NPCs I do! wink.gif ).If anyone has played Giants Citizen Kabuto tell me what you think of a construction system like that,i find it amazing and yet very simple to use and think it might be a good way to go,for large cities anyway.Out of town building should be possible but would have to be limited to stop buildinds everywere.





Why is your PvP death system different to your normal death system.I think the one you mention here is the way to go(except maybe no wait,just char has to heal and eat before can return to battle,that or distant respawn).Depending on numbers expected to enter PvP I think there should be areas were you can and cant.Instead of simple not allowing it,have there be something like your 'king will not allow it here' and if you try do it anyway guards tp in and arrest you.I would like PvP everywere but just a system were it is not done were it shouldn't be done.

An exmple of such a system would be the use of guilds.When a player starts in PW they start as a member of the kings guild.If anyone attacks,it'll warn them first that they are and if they try to anyway the guards will appear and remove them.Note if you start the attack guards appear and remove you.You have a week in the guild to find the guild for you and get a hang of the game but as soon as you join a different one you are out of the kings.

Once in a guild you have the protection of that guild against threats.However you are also in PvP.This wont matter much in starting cities as the city guards will break up most fights although this can start guild wars if unprovoked attack that guildleaders cant resolve peacefully.Thus until you really start adventuring you should be safe enough from PvP and then adventuring any PvP could result in guild wars so wont simply be greifing.Phew I gotta stop with these long posts! blink.gif

Radiostorm great idea about the foundations.Maybe if the person who made the structure(say Bob) could simply 'open' the buildings menu,select repair and pay the price.Then a sign could pop up in front of building indicating to PCs there a quest available here and they can come and repair the building,the price paid by Bob being split appropriately between time and labor.This would suit a soldier with no time/ability to build building.If two days passed without repair town NPCs would fix it and take money.

Wow cool stuff penguin!I remember a previous thread about evolving quests,a bunch of wolves followed their prey to a town,got bored hunting and so attacked an NPCs farm killing their sheep.Farmer pops up a quest to rid themselves of wolves,thus players kill a realistic amount and are rewarded and quest vanishes.
Most interesting and yet most difficult idea you mentioned would probably NPCs forming new towns.Would be interesting but theres probably only so much room on the maps and with all the PCs fighting for it too might be quite a challenge.Agreed with and have been hoping for a realistic system of construction(and crafting)were gold and materials are required to create items and thus the effect of price increases as supply is dwindled away.
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penguin42
post Oct 7 2006, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE(Pandra @ Oct 6 2006, 05:13 PM)
We haven't really touched on quests or live content because well... the game is really early in development. There isn't even a lot of lore or cities or even races and factions decided on yet to base quests and live content off of. To really break away from other games and keep player immersion high you really need good, strong lore in place first.

Once we have that, the quests should be rather easy. They'll be teh part of the story that players get to interact with.  wink.gif  And what keeps the story moving along.
*



Oh, I totally agree that you need a lot of lore in place before you can start writing the actual stories and quests. What I was talking about was the need for a quest system that allows Live Content to be developed and deployed on a large scale relatively quickly, or even be created in real time based on players' actions (though such a complex AI system may be just a bit too ambitious for now!)


QUOTE(Timmmy @ Oct 6 2006, 08:59 PM)
Most interesting and yet most difficult idea you mentioned would probably NPCs forming new towns.Would be interesting but theres probably only so much room on the maps and with all the PCs fighting for it too might be quite a challenge.
*



Well, like I just said above, my NPC ideas might have been getting a bit too carried away wink.gif ... though a simple solution to "only so much room on a map" is to make the map incredibly large! (well... maybe it's not really "simple" to do that)

However, I stand by my basic point, which is that a LiveContent quest system is going to be complex to implement, and may affect how you want to design other areas of gameplay, and so should be considered early on in development, if not right from the start.
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Pandra
post Oct 7 2006, 07:45 PM
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Thank you for that Clarification Penguin and sorry I misunderstood orginally. That is a very ambisious AI, we'll have to wait to hear from one of the programmers to find out if it' even remotey possible.


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Zelth TideRunner
post Oct 15 2006, 01:57 AM
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Ok, first idea post...here we go smile.gif

I really like the idea of skills decreasing over time without use. However, there should be a fun and quick way to counteract it for players that are trying to maintain a multi skilled character.

Large towns and cities could have "skill maintenance" facilities. Say your a mage and you haven't been online for a week. Your casting skill has gone a bit rusty. Rather then risk warming up on something that might kill you, you go to the Library (magic's "skill maintenance" facility) in your town/city of choice and study up on some spells. You could go to the books and pull out a few spells you'd like to learn with some proficiency before you use them in combat and step inside some magically warded circle in the library and try them out. This offers characters a sort of training/skill enhancement tool. This also puts certain classes in a close area where they are likely to meet others of the same class actively practicing or experimenting with different skills. These same types of faculties could be made for melee combat (practice yard) and ranged combat (archery range).

High level or Legendary skills, spells, or abilities could be learned at special skill facilities not found in town.
You could stumble upon the ruin of some ancient library with a few old spell books that contain powerful spells not found in town, or, if you’re a warrior, travel to some far off gladiator coliseum and enter to face some kind of gauntlet in order to learn some kind of new fighting style.

I also had an idea for a stat called "Edge". A meter that shows how much of an "edge" you have on your skill at the moment. A high edge would need regular maintenance at a practice facility, but would grant an increased learning speed of spells or abilities within that skill. A skills edge would decay over time and if it completely eroded it would start to take points out of the skill itself. Having an edge on all skills relevant to your character would be an important aspect of character progression.


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Jerky
post Oct 15 2006, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE(Zelth TideRunner @ Oct 15 2006, 01:57 AM)
Large towns and cities could have "skill maintenance" facilities. Say your a mage and you haven't been online for a week. Your casting skill has gone a bit rusty. Rather then risk warming up on something that might kill you, you go to the Library (magic's "skill maintenance" facility) in your town/city of choice and study up on some spells. You could go to the books and pull out a few spells you'd like to learn with some proficiency before you use them in combat and step inside some magically warded circle in the library and try them out. This offers characters a sort of training/skill enhancement tool. This also puts certain classes in a close area where they are likely to meet others of the same class actively practicing or experimenting with different skills. These same types of faculties could be made for melee combat (practice yard) and ranged combat (archery range).

High level or Legendary skills, spells, or abilities could be learned at special skill facilities not found in town.
You could stumble upon the ruin of some ancient library with a few old spell books that contain powerful spells not found in town, or, if you’re a warrior, travel to some far off gladiator coliseum and enter to face some kind of gauntlet in order to learn some kind of new fighting style.

I also had an idea for a stat called "Edge". A meter that shows how much of an "edge" you have on your skill at the moment. A high edge would need regular maintenance at a practice facility, but would grant an increased learning speed of spells or abilities within that skill. A skills edge would decay over time and if it completely eroded it would start to take points out of the skill itself. Having an edge on all skills relevant to your character would be an important aspect of character progression.
*


UO had training dummies and targets etc. This could be done, although it *may* be a bit boring, since its been done before. On the other hand, with decay, there does have to be ways to stop it from happening.

Regarding your "Edge" idea, is that supposed to be like WoW's rest xp? I am not sure if you intended it that way, but of all the things WoW introduced, I think this may have the most merit. Obviously, in a skill system, WoW's rest xp wouldnt work, but your "Edge" idea could. This may just be me changing your idea, but I think this could be a great idea. This would allow players who havent had the chance to play as often as others, to "catch up," so to speak. It could also be a dangerous idea, I am just thinking out loud here wink.gif.


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