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Posted by: Jaramar Sep 14 2006, 09:34 AM

Just thought I'd put up a list of possible skills here that I'd worked on over the summer, the crafting skills are no where near complete though. I'll be putting in more little comments as I work on this today.

Coloration:
Skill Catagory
Visible
Visible and has optional "Ability Sets".
Hidden
Ability Sets, Spells, and Crafting Recipes

Melee Skills:
-Damage Types:
--Piercing (Small bonus to chance to hit and damage while using Piercing style weapons in melee combat regardless of actual damage type.)
--Slashing (Small bonus to chance to hit and damage while using Slashing style weapons in melee combat regardless of actual damage type.)
--Bludgeoning (Small bonus to chance to hit and damage while using Bludgeoning style weapons in melee combat regardless of actual damage type.)
-Styles: (All styles give additional chance to hit as well.)
--One Handed (Moderate bonus to dodge and casting speed as well as a small bonus to melee damage while using a single One Handed weapon.)
--Two Handed (Moderate bonus to melee damage while using a Two Handed weapon.)
--Dual Wield (Small bonus to melee damage, dodge, and parry while using two One Handed weapons.)
--Weapon and Shield (Moderate bonus to shield usage and a small bonus to melee damage while using a One Handed weapon and Shield.)
-Weapons: (All weapon skills get chance to hit and damage bonuses while raising in addition to anything mentioned specifically.)
--Axes
--Daggers (Small bonus to dodge, casting speed, and parry.)
--Hammers
--Maces (Flail skill available after extensive use of the Maces skill.)
--Short Pole Weapons (Hunting Spears fall into this catagory while in melee combat and in the Javalin catagory for ranged combat.)
--Swords
--Unarmed (Gives a large bonus to dodge and casting speed but may only parry Bludgeoning and Piercing weapons and will still take half damage.)
(Full sized polearms are only for usage against mounted opponents!)

Ranged Skills:
-Accuracy (Increased chance to hit and a small bonus to ranged damage due to extensive use of different Ranged weapons.)
-Weapons: (All weapon skills get chance to hit and damage bonuses while raising in addition to anything mentioned specifically.)
--Bows
--Crossbows (Repeating Crossbow skill available after extensive use of the Crossbow skill.)
--Javelins (Hunting Spears fall into this catagory while in ranged combat and in the Short Pole Weapons catagory for melee combat.)
--Thrown Weapons

Defence:
-Dodging (Takes penalties dependant on weight and type of the armor.)
-Parrying (Takes penalties dependant on weight and type of the weapon.)
-Shields (Usable with one handed melee and ranged weapons.)
-Armor:
--Chainmail (Gives a slight bonus to defence while wearing Chainmail. Chainmail armor causes a moderate speed decrease and dodging penalty. Slow casting speed.)
--Leather (Gives a slight bonus to defence while wearing Leather. Leather armor causes a small speed decrease and dodging penalty. Moderate casting speed.)
--Platemail (Gives a slight bonus to defence while wearing Platemail. Platemail armor causes a large speed decrease and dodging penalty. EXTREMELY slow casting speed and unable to cast War Spells.)
--Unarmored (Gives a slight bonus to defence while not wearing armor. Not wearing armor causes no penalties. Fast casting speed.)

Magic:
-Enchantments (Supposedly due to some lore requirement but really for balance and variety each character can either choose Enchantments which are self buffs or Healing which is for healing, ressurection, and status effect removal. Enchantment skill also gives a bonus to War spells while Healing gives a bonus to Summoning spells.)
-Healing (Supposedly due to some lore requirement but really for balance and variety each character can either choose Enchantments which are self buffs or Healing which is for healing, ressurection, and status effect removal. Enchantment skill also gives a bonus to War spells while Healing gives a bonus to Summoning spells.)
-Summoning: (While a summoned creature or creatures are active you may not engage in melee or ranged combat. This could supposedly be due to needing to keep ones mind in the "casting" mentality but is also to make sure that we don't have everyone and thier grandmother with summoned pets.)
--Creatures
--Elementals
--Undead
--Drains (Not summoning spells exactly but more appropriate to this school then to being a War Spell.)
-War Spells:
--Acid
--Bludgeoning
--Fire
--Ice
--Lighting
--Piercing
--Slashing

Crafting:
-Hunting
--Butchering (Every 25 points in Skinning gives a +1 skill point bonus but only if the corpse has been skinned.)
---Butcher Creature
--Skinning (Shearing skill available after extensive use of the Skinning skill.)
---Skin Creature
---Shear Creature
-Metalworking
--Mining
---Dig
---Extract Gems
---Extract Ore
---Extract Stone
--Smelting
---Smelt Ore
--Blacksmithing
---Create Arrowheads
---Create Crafting Knife
---Create Framework
---Create Hammer
---Create Nails
---Create Needles
---Create Pick
---Create Pot
---Create Saw
---Create Smith's Hammer
---Create Wood Axe
-Woodworking
--Wood Harvesting
---Harvest Wood
--Carpentry
---Create Beam
---Create Board
---Create Pole
---Create Shingles

-Alchemy (Every 10 points in Cooking gives a +1 skill point bonus.)
--Brew Alchemical Oil
--Brew Alchemical Poison
--Brew Cloth Dye
--Brew Leather Dye
--Brew Metal Paint
--Brew Paint
--Brew Potion
--Create Alchemical Item
-Armorsmithing
--Create Buckler
--Create Small Round Shield
--Create Medium Kite Shield
--Create Medium Round Shield
--Create Large Kite Shield
--Create Tower Shield
--Create Chainmail Armor
--Create Splintmail Armor
--Create Platemail Armor
--Create Metal Boots
--Paint Armor
-Construction (Every 10 points in Carpentry gives a +1 skill point bonus to wooden constructions, while every 10 points in Mining gives a +1 skill point bonus to stone constuctions. If a construction has both wood and stone you only get a +1 for every 15 points in Carpentry and Mining combined.)
-Cooking (Every 15 points in Skinning and Butchering combined gives a +1 skill point bonus.)
-Enchanting (Every 10 levels in Enchantment gives a +1 skill point bonus.)
-Fletching
-Leatherworking
--Tan Leather
--Create Leather Armor
--Create Studded Leather Armor
--Create Leather Boots
--Create Leather Shoes
--Dye Leather
--Waterproof Leather
-Tailoring
--Spin Thread
--Dye Clothing
--Weave Cloak
--Weave Dress
--Weave Pants
--Weave Robe
--Weave Shirt
--Weave Cloth Shoes
-Weaponsmithing

(This is a VERY basic example of the craft system which is still a work in progress. For example right now quarrying is lumped in with mining. This should change.)

Random Notes and Thoughts:
Armor Penalties and Crafting ideas - http://forums.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=5376
Armor types equals more quick access slots which are the only ones available in battle?
Poison?
Minthos's idea with skill respec points after max?

Posted by: Minthos Sep 14 2006, 04:11 PM

I've done some thinking on skill distribution and the question of how to limit characters.
This is what I came up with:

A character gets a maximum of 137 points to distribute. (*)

Up to a certain level, skills are free.
To take advantage of higher skill levels, they need to invest points into that skill.

First rank (apprentice) costs 1 point
Second rank (journeyman) costs 5 points
Third rank (master) costs 20 points
Fourth rank (specialist) costs 60 points

Thus, a master skill would require a total investment of 26 points, a specialist skill would require 86 points total.

Results of this would be that:

A specialist can choose one master skill as well, and if he does, max 4 journeyman skills (86 + 26 + 4*6 = 136). If he doesen't want to have a master skill, he can then choose up to 8 journeyman skills (86 + 8*6 = 134).

A non-specialist can choose 5 master skills, 1 journeyman skill and 1 apprentice skill, or 22 journeyman skills and 5 apprentice skills, or something in between.



* I don't know how this "max 137 points" limit should be enforced, but I think 137 would be a good number. Read my post on.. hmm.. I think I've made a post on this..

Considering the number of skills mentioned in Jaramar's post (remember, those are only combat skills, and the list could still grow a lot), it's obvious that characters won't be able to master all the skills they depend on daily. This means that skills should be highly useful even at low levels - i.e. we should unlock the most useful stuff already at apprentice level, and reserve the higher ranks for more special stuff and "fancy moves". It also means that someone who chooses to specialize in a skill will sacrifice lots of other cool stuff, which allows us to give specialists some really extraordinary abilities.

Posted by: Jaramar Sep 14 2006, 04:25 PM

We could do the distribution point method but I had been under the impression most of the community wanted to be able to swap around and use skills as they pleased. I myself have an idea that was much the same as yours... where you can learn any skill but are allowed to specialize in X amount of them... which could be changable through quests later in a character's life. Perhaps that could use a poll when the time comes to see if they want one of a number of systems we can use.

Posted by: RicoSuave Sep 14 2006, 06:43 PM

Miscellaneous Damage:
- Poison
-- Slow damage over time
-- Fast damage over time
-- Debilitating
-- Magic-resistant vs. magic-cured
-- Imbibed/Injested

- Bleed-effect (or whatever)
-- Slow damage over time

- Critical Failure on curing/healing
-- No heal
-- Anti-heal

- Fratricide-effects
-- Critical Failure on casting
-- Interrupt during casting
-- Proximity during melee/ranged combat

- Self-induced
-- ...

I don't have time to finish this list now, but I wanted to get a few ideas down while we're on the topic. I would, however, absolutely LOVE to further explore the topic of Fratricide-effects. I never understood how a mage (or whoever, but we'll use mages in this example) could cast an Area of Effect (AoE) spell and not effect anyone but intended targets. I think a special skill in 'Concentration' would be a MUST to keep that from occuring. This concentration skill would also provide proof against interruption and failures.

But now to get back on topic of this thread, I think poison should be editted into your original post Jaramar. Good list though.

Posted by: xardy Sep 15 2006, 03:36 AM

I'm missing the basic skill of all , strenght: would allow you to wear more armor/items , do more damage. Could be trained with combat, but also running around with a full inventory (weight based inventory then).

Durability: Allows you to use (sprint?) longer, run a longer distance with sprint (if you implent sprint).

Think its a bit like in oblivion, not really sure, only played that game for 4 hours.

Posted by: Honis Sep 15 2006, 11:00 AM

Some ideas about skill sets came up in http://forums.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=5353&st=20

Summery:

Have a parellel skill set called item intelegence. Each skill has this seperate itellegence skill set. It either levels as you use the skill (just like the physical skill) or you can read/take a class to increase the intelegence skill set (not the physical skill). This way people who choose to be none combat can craft increasingly good weapons or sell items . Also, if a warrior has a high intelegence, they can increasse the speed at which they can become experts in it (physical skill lvls to the intelegence skill faster).


This skill set relates mostly to how the items in the game are going to be ranked, so I recommend you review the listed thread for a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Posted by: RicoSuave Sep 15 2006, 02:57 PM

Playing off your INTELLIGENCE idea, Honis, perhaps it could also be used to see if a character could use a certain weapon's abilities.

For example, Zorog the Barbarian using a wand would probably fail or critically fail while using it more often than Elindra the Sorceress. He could still use it to start his campfire, or maybe a forestfire, but she could obviously use it far more efficiently.

Vise versa, Elindra trying to use a mace for anything more than a bookend might seriously sprain her back (not lifting with the knees). However, Zorog having 'Intelligence: Melee' would be able to obviously tell how well it smashes Undeads' noggins.

I like your idea a lot!
Were you thinking about it being used having subsets like I do? Or was it a stand-alone stat that other skills referenced?

Posted by: Dwilf Sep 15 2006, 03:51 PM

I'd like to know how you see these skills working. How does a character increase them and what do these skill increases do?

Taking a weapon skill for example:

How does one improve swords skill from, say, Rank 1 to Rank 10?
What would have changed/improved over these rank increases?
Would two Rank 10 Swordsmen have identical progression or do you have plans for some type of customization? Ie, would would make two characters of equal rank diffrent?

About these "intelligence skills" can we call them "lore" or "knowledge" so as not not get confused with a character's Intelligence which I see as being a natural attribute much like Strength, Beauty, Agility or any other thing that would be determined initially by your DNA.

Posted by: Razaekel Sep 16 2006, 07:52 PM

Just a quick reply to Dwilf's question of how the skills would work.

I would think that an increase in 'level' would result in a increased ability to use a weapon, i.e. swing faster, hit harder, for weapon levels, that is. For magical abilities, it could be a increased casting speed, slightly increased damage, less mana cost, etc.

On second thought, what abou a system where there aren't any levels? instead of levels, just have a general increae in a number associated with each skill, and use the number to do the calculations. so instead of level 13 in sword usage, you could instead be 13.52 or 1352 or .1352. This would allow a gradual increase in players abilities over time, instead of sudden spurts at the completion of each level.

Posted by: Jaramar Sep 16 2006, 09:10 PM

You increase your skills ONLY through usage. Where the uniqueness comes in is the "ability sets" Minthos suggested. Basically at X level in a skill you can put in points and unlock an ability set which will give you a few new attacks. The damage and speed of them are still balnaced off the primary skill but they will do an additional little something (the 'little something' being a big something if someone actually gets a specialist skill due ot the fact that the cost of a specialist skill is over three times the cost of a master skill by Minthos's reckoning. Otherwise it would actually make a stronger character to spread across multiple sets... which wouldn't be a bad thing and infact that's where we are trying to aim the balance).

And Razaekel, those are still levels. It's just that they are chopped up into much finer peices. Still, your point is well taken. Most people, however, like to see jumps of improvement instead of just getting better at an un-noticable rate.

Posted by: RicoSuave Sep 16 2006, 10:24 PM

I'm not one of those people. I hate the DING! I don't understand how after accomplishing some task or quest, you are suddenly able to defeat a monster that you weren't able to defeat 30 seconds prior. Maybe if the equipment changed, or the tactics used, but suddenly becoming better out of thin air?

Personally, I like Razaekel's idea of constant, progressive skill gain. Perhaps an ability may be learned suddenly (true-to-life) through some type of education. Maybe an 'Armor Pierce' shot could be available after using a weapon long enough. I'm sure we can think up many ideas where people can see their progression come in visible chunks if that's what we decide on. However, I'd like to keep as far away from 'DING!' as possible.

Posted by: Jaramar Sep 16 2006, 10:37 PM

I'd been talking to Razakiel about this actually just a few minutes ago. Personally I'd like it to be somewhat like Asheron's Call. There were 300 levels... each one small and very much like the next one. However you could use certain things at certain points (there weapons and occaionally spells, here "ability sets" and such). To take it a step further I suggested that they not be exact skill levels... but rather hidden values over a 20 point range unique to a character so that they all get the option to upgrade thier ability sets at different times. It's much the same as you said, though the ability sets become the new levels more then the skills do. Still, there is no reason for 0.53425 skill. This can be represented easily enough as 53% of the way to level 1.

Posted by: Minthos Sep 17 2006, 08:37 AM

If players want a "character level" that they can relate to, we could display a rounded-down logarithm of the sum of their skill points, or rather the values their skill points are some sort of logarithmic functions of..

edit: Damn, made a serious error.. *hopes nobody has read it yet :D*

edit2: *sigh*, finally found the solution. Here's linux source code for a program that draws two graphs plotted against each other, one shows

x = f(y) = 10^(200/(200-y)) -10

and the other calculates

y = f(x) = 200 - 200 / (log10(x + 10))

where x is the number of experience points, the length in time, or something like that, required to reach level y in some skill, and y is the number of skill points you get if you have x experience in that skill. Quite simple really, but took me ages to calculate and verify properly since I'm such a noob :)

oops, forgot the source. here it is.
http://heim.ifi.uio.no/espeov/mywork/utility/

Posted by: Dwilf Sep 17 2006, 04:00 PM

I'm more of the opinion - If players want a "character level" they can relate to then they can go play a non skill based game such as WoW.

How about doing away with skill levels and instead characters earn "Training Credits" with skill usage. These credits can be spent on abilities, unlocking more specialised skills, improving skill related stats, etc.
The total number of credits a character can "earn" in a skill could be related to race(natural affinity), attributes(smarter mage, more capacity to learn spells) and any other factors we can think of. This would make characters diffrent from right from creation as they'd have diffrent potentials. We could even keep the maximum number of credits they can earn in each skill hidden from them to help stop meta-gaming and number crunching munchkins.

I also think there should be skills and abilities that can only be "unlocked" via quests and even rarer ones that would be given by GMs in epic storylines to proven RPers(who distinguished thier character in said storyline)

Posted by: Jaramar Sep 18 2006, 01:13 AM

Your Training Credits make it even more level based then simply giving them some numbers... which like it or not we will need serverside anyhow. One of the first ideas about skills and one I will support to the very end is that a skill should only raise if it is USED. Once it's high enough they might be able to learn an "ability set" at that point but the skill itself NEEDS TO IMPROVE THROUGH USE!

Also people WILL find the maximum credit amount. Someone will slowly pick away at it until it's figured out and it show's up on websites.

Posted by: RicoSuave Sep 18 2006, 07:47 AM

Jaramar is right. Munchkiny will always be present. Meta-gaming is the only way to play for some. What we're getting into now is theory & strategy... not tactics. My brother and I have very different ways of playing. He's a number-cruncher! He spends weeks writing algorithms and spreadsheets, formulae and equations, finding the very best path to take to maximize his chances at 'Victorious Survival' in any situation. I, however, am a role-player. My paladin is the first one to jump on a grenade to save his comrades.

I suggest (since it will always exist) we don't worry about attempting to hide anything... it will all be discovered anyway. I suggest we just simply have pros & cons or trade-offs for every skill, stat, race, quest, etc. in the game.

In Ultima Online, you can always trade your stats/skills for others (after you've actually learned a few). You can effectively change your class. If you got tired of magery, you could drop it and pick a stick and whack things with it enough until you become a warrior instead. This sticks right along with Jaramar's (and most people's) opinion of character development through use of skills.

Posted by: Matlush Sep 18 2006, 07:57 AM

I see it like that:

Use skill - > Get higher skill, that makes increases something with a multiplier -> The skill definiates your profession.

And if you want to change your profesion, simpy do something else. The first skill will get lower if you won't use it.

Posted by: Dwilf Sep 18 2006, 09:54 AM

Re: Training Credits, Maybe I didn't explain it very well.

It is still a skill based system and server side there will be numbers involved, that is pretty much all any game is behind the scenes. What I'm suggesting is that instead of having a skill level that always goes up when the skill is used the experiance is converted into credits(the best word i can think to use ATM). The player can then spend these via a skill interface or NPC trainers(whatever) to improve that skill. For weapon skills you could spend them on attack or damage improvments, speed increases, new moves, etc. At some point your character can earn no more credits in a skill and thus can improve it no futher.
Certainly the better abilites and bonuses within a skill would have pre-requisites of some kind, you must learn to walk before you learn to run.

Just to make it clear, using a sword would earn you sword skill credits, these could only be used to improve the sword skill. We'll have no Master 'Smiths who learnt all they know of metal working by grind-killing goblins.

One thing this way of doing skills does not provide is automatic improvments that are common to all. If you want your character to become more accurate with his sword you must spend the sword skill credits earnt accordingly. This allows a player to improve his/her character's skills as fits the player's idea for the character; rather than a predefined route of "+x damage & +y to-hit per level"

With the varying cap on the number of training credits a character gets in a skill this is a representation of the fact that a smarter fighter would be more versatile than a dumb brute thus having a bigger choice of moves he could use. This is balanced by the fact the the stronger, but dumber, character has a higher damage output per hit.

Posted by: Matlush Sep 18 2006, 10:46 AM

I would argue that. Fighting, getting to NPC to raise your stats, or crafting and getting to NPC would be time consuming Project Entropia has a good skill system (but almost without any meaning): Using a rifle, you were raising such skills:
- Rifle
- Weapon Handling
- Aiming
- Ranged Damage
- Laser Weapon Technology
- Agility
- Combat Sense
- Dexterity
- Perception
And some other that i don't remember

EDIT: To do a difference between a brute dumb sword user and a smart one, you could just get certain skill for certain move in battle.

Posted by: Jaramar Sep 18 2006, 12:49 PM

And here using a Two Handed Mace would get you:
-Mace
-Two Handed Weapon Style
-Bludgeoning

Or a One Handed Mace and Shield gets you:
-Mace
-Weapon and Shield Style
-Bludgeoning
-Shield

As well as any other armor or defensive skills currently in use.

Posted by: glibdud Mar 31 2007, 11:58 AM

Is there a discussion of a skills system somewhere? I don't see a Skills Requirements thread or anything similar.

Posted by: Pandra Mar 31 2007, 02:27 PM

I think there are several diffrent threads started on spacific skills people are interested in like cooking, trading, crafting, and some that lightly touch on character skills but I don't think there's a spacific thread dedicated to it yet.

Posted by: glibdud Mar 31 2007, 03:28 PM

Well I'll throw my ideas for a general skills system in here, and copy it over if an official thread is made.

Skills Hierarchy
I think one way to make skills more dynamic and realistic is to arrange them hierarchically into a sort of tree arrangement. The roots of the trees would consist of what would traditionally be called "stats" or "attributes". From those, very general classes of skills can split off. From those, slightly more specific skills can be split off. And so on. Here's a simple example of one branch of the skills tree:

• Body
  • Upper Body Strength
    • Blacksmithing
      • Armorcrafting
      • Weaponcrafting
    • Swordsmanship
  • Lower Body Strength
    • Forcing Barriers
    • Kicking

Now, imagine that you craft a sword. Doing so would "exercise" your Weaponcrafting skill, increasing your experience in it. But then it also exercises your Blacksmithing skill, providing a smaller increase to that. In this way, the experience trickles all the way down to the root of the tree, providing a smaller bonus for each level it traverses.

When skill checks are made, the same sort of process is followed. The next time you make a sword, its quality is affected by your skill. That skill will consist of your actual Weaponcrafting skill, as well as, to a smaller extent, your general Blacksmithing skill, Upper Body Strength, and Body (each level having progressively less influence).

What such a system does, then, is tie skills together in a realistic way. That sword you crafted provided you with valuable knowledge about crafting more swords. But you also learned more about metalworking in general, which will also help in smithing other items. It also worked your upper body, providing you with a little more oomph the next time you swing a sword.

Where it can get real complex is when skills apply to more than one branch. The system can deal with this just fine, but it makes the tree into more of a mesh that isn't as easy to read. But then again, the game design for which I wrote this system was aimed at hiding most of the mechanics from the players. If you can make it intuitive enough, there's no reason the players need to see the tree at all.

I imagine the biggest roadblock for this system would be on the technical side. Every skill check requires a number of calculations to be done on the server, which could potentially turn into quite a load. But I don't have enough experience in such matters to really be able to tell how bad it would be.

Posted by: jaminben Mar 31 2007, 05:06 PM

I like that idea glibdud, and it seems to be in the spirit of PW. It makes sense and is somewhat realistic.

Posted by: Exudos Mar 31 2007, 10:55 PM

I'd like to throw my two cents here, appropriate or not . Anyway, I think that the ability to shape the games towns and cities would be nice. An ingame little building design toolkit could create a demand for a new kind of crafter, one who actually uses real life skills to design houses and buildings, at a cost with resource costs as well of course. This would be realistic, much like in real life. If you did this, the game could also start out with just a bunch of tribes wandering around for good spots to make cities. Some would flourish, some would become guilds, some might become little religious outposts, some could become military bases... This building customization would pretty much open up the ultimate in roleplaying customization. Your character could have a job assigned to him by other players, be in the army, have an established trade buisness... This would also open things up for pirates, just really make the game completely customizable. SecondLife did much the same thing, and it developed into a rich and diverse place. Because every builder has their own flourish, it could create some of the most spectacular buildings any game has seen, even "caves" that are actually player made fortresses! (my personal fantasy right there, a guild of assassins living in a fortress cave ) Characters should also start out and gain levels based on what they do, not by classes. I much agree with Glibdud on the skill tree issue as well, it is very much in the way an MMO should be, although extensive with formulas. I have some, or alot, of experience with C++, and it should be doable however. I'm a bit rusty, otherwise I would sign up as a programmer , but that's away from the point. In conclusion, I think that player made buildings would make for a developing culture and unique and diverse cities. It would influence the game mechanics, create wars, just make for a bloody fun game. I'm not saying it should be easy to make a house or city, but it should be fun.

Posted by: glibdud Apr 3 2007, 01:04 PM

My previous post was moved from another thread before I saw this one, so it may not appear to fit the context. A few more comments on what I've read here:

I'm in favor of hiding as much as possible of the numbers behind the scene from the players. I disagree with the sentiment that "It's going to get figured out anyway, so why bother hiding it." For a simplistic system (e.g. WoW), that may be true. But a more complex and realistic system could be designed such that the players never really know exactly what's happening behind the scenes. They'll figure out the tendencies, sure, but there'll always be enough doubt in the system that people will be motivated to try to find a better way.

The argument that "People like to see discrete improvements" is valid, but I'm of the opinion that in a well-designed system, you'll be able to take that away without most of the players even noticing. That relies a lot on keeping the players interested in the actual content.

I'm also opposed to an artificial skill cap. I think skill decay can take care of making sure players can't master everything at once.

And since I'm feeling contrary today, I'll go ahead and disagree with one more thing. I really don't like the idea of letting characters change their skill build on a whim. Characters should have a real identity, and if I meet Bob the Legendary Warrior today, it would really be silly to see him hurling fireballs but unable to lift a sword tomorrow. If you want players to be able to switch identities, let them make multiple characters.

Posted by: Dwilf Apr 3 2007, 01:51 PM

I have to say that I agree with Glibdud's last paragraph completely, and that his previous post with the skill system with synergy and feedback/forward is very close to how the skill system forming in my head works.

I also want most of the mechanics hidden with just things your character could see/know displayed as info in the UI.

I'm in favor of skill decay but would prefer to see time limited lifespans for charcacters and a permadeath system so we don't need skill decay or a cap. I know this will be unpopular with some/many gamers but I stick to my view that a dynamic game world (RP heavy or not) needs a dynamic character population and this requires PCs to die and not come back at some point.

Posted by: glibdud Apr 3 2007, 03:47 PM

I should probably spend more time thinking about permadeath systems and deciding if I could come to live with one. I've always been against it. The biggest problem I see is that if life expectancy is too short, it'll be difficult to get into a character. But if it's too long, players will feel like they're losing something they worked hard to achieve.

On the other hand, it does make skill limits a much simpler subject. And it would probably reduce the desire to grind, since people lose the "I'll put in the work now so I that I never have to do it again" mentality. (Although... I suppose it could be said to encourage grinding, in the mindset that you don't have time to wait around and let your skills slowly build up. That's an interesting one.) Plus it's just a while different dynamic, which PW seems to be all about.

To be clear, are you suggesting combat permadeath, or just old age?

Perhaps a half-way system where a character doesn't actually die, but simply retires? He's no longer any good for combat or spellcasting, but can still hang around at least for socializing (and maybe introduce some sort of teaching/training system).

Posted by: Maxwell Apr 4 2007, 09:15 AM

I like the teaching/training system. I think there is a thread somewhere about that. Though this kind of "forces" players to be that teacher after a certain time, some people may not like this though. People hate being "forced" to do things in games. Maybe we need a gentel hand to push them along that way, make it seem like it's there decision.

Posted by: Dwilf Apr 4 2007, 10:39 AM

To be clear; yes, I'm suggesting combat permadeath as well as some form of old age.

I'd also put in some system so the players don't have to start right from scratch when a charcter dies. I was thinking recently of a changable pool of points to spend at character creation. Doing well, taking part in live events/quests and RPing would lead to your account having more points to spent on future characters. Players who mess about and break the rules (griefing and other undesirable stuff) would have thier point pool reduced by the devs thus they are "gimping" their future characters.

Posted by: Maxwell Apr 4 2007, 11:09 AM

Nice setup, so why couldn't we just have a death system with heirs. I am not saying you need to have an NPC family and when you die one of you kids take over, but its more or less like you start off a lower level than your "father," but now your not starting at zero. It's the same basic concept as dwilfs, its just with a story twist.

Posted by: glibdud Apr 4 2007, 01:08 PM

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too. I think there's a MUD that does that... full-time PvP with permadeath, with some/all of a dead character's money/possessions passing to his next character as an heir.

I dunno, I'm still a bit skeptical. I'm all for severe death penalties, but I'm not quite sure I can go that severe.

For one thing, I envision an environment where explorers are always in danger of being stalked and gutted by a hungry tiger. Be kinda harsh for their whole career to be over in a flash like that.

Also, let's not forget that the internet isn't perfect. Can you imagine how much it would suck if your internet connection dropped in the middle of a battle, leaving your character defenseless? (And how much it would be exploited if we allowed the character to immediately disappear?)

Posted by: Dwilf Apr 4 2007, 01:42 PM

Maybe having your next character as an heir to the last one could be an option to spend a some points on as long as they are the same race. But if your last charcter was a human mage type who liked sewing on the weekend but your next character is a gnomish Troll Hunter who makes his own acid injecting crossbow bolts, And humans and gnomes are at war in the game?

I know there will be hurdles aplenty to implement a "fun" combat triggered permadeath system; but I think the way such a danger would impact the way you play your characters would be worth any headaches caused designing it.

Posted by: Minthos Apr 5 2007, 12:28 AM

Mourning (dead mmorpg project) planned to have bloodlines and limited character lifespan. Might be worth digging up some of their ideas for recycling.

Posted by: Exudos Apr 5 2007, 07:38 PM

Ahhh, I see how it could work, the perma death.
You only get one character at a time, who shares a soul with their decendants, as in, you die, you make a new character, you start out a little stronger, wiser, with memories of your past lives to guide you along, maybe you gain experience faster depending on the levels of your past lives, who knows. You could pray at alters to certain gods to extend your life, and could use them to gain more power from your past lives. Just an idea.

Posted by: Jerky Apr 5 2007, 10:41 PM

Thats a good brief summary of the idea. That gets the main parts of it. There are lots of finer details that could be done, but most people see that word and are scared away. There are many who would not even try a game if permadeath were envolved.

To be clear, I am not putting any opinion in those comments at all. I would love to explore the idea more.

Posted by: glibdud Apr 6 2007, 12:51 PM

Yeah, it's worth discussing when the time comes. It would probably have to be one of the first things decided on... it would affect the balance of a lot of systems.

Posted by: Bent Coin May 15 2007, 05:28 AM

Hi all. I recently joined the forums, and enjoyed your discussions. I found the discussion on perma death very interesting. As an old school MMORPG player I know that would scare me away from your game.
Players work hard to build their characters, and perma death seems like a huge waste of effort even with other characters inheriting some some skills , valuables etc.
As a player I would want to have a say in such a major decision. Now I can see a character dieing permanently lets say in a GM run event if the player consents to it prior, and say you work out some type of a deal, maybe a memorial, shrine etc to that player.
Another way would be to run events with great rewards, but also great penalties. Let the players know that this is a perma death event, that way the players have an option to participate or not. I can assure you there will be participants if the rewards are worth the risk.
Just my opinion.

Posted by: Maxwell May 15 2007, 10:04 AM

I like that Idea, but what is something a player is going to risk their life for? Maybe a legacy. I don't know, personally I hated perma-death, but now it has kind of grown on me. I see more people being a tad bit more careful, instead of fighting and knowing you will come back, you will do everything in your power to stay alive. I would be interesting to see who would stand there ground and who would run.

I personally don't think that it would be fair to lose all of your skill and possessions, but I believe it will be enough that you would be worried about being killed. If you think about it's very much like non perma-death you will die but you come back as another character and you will have lost some skill and some possessions, as I think about it the line between perma-death and respawning at a bind stone, is very faded.

Posted by: Honis May 15 2007, 12:02 PM

back to the subject of player skill degrigation.

Why not have a skill called "Fatty" (working name). The longer you idle (in and out of game) the higher this skill becomes. It basically works agaist any skill that requires activity (sword fighting, arrow shooting, spell casting, etc.) The higher the skill the slower and weaker you become. The skill points can be worked off when your active (running, figting, etc). I suggest this because most people will not like seeing a hard earned set of skills disappear.

A draw back I see is that it can be exploited rather easily. If the game has auto-run then someone can point the charater in some direction hit the run button and go take a nap (if they aren' afraid of dieing) (the boot method can also be used if auto-run gets disabled somehow). Perma-death would scare most people away from doing this, but I'm not an advicator for the p-word If certain things aren't designed into the game, they could just keep running into a corner. If people are afraid of dieing and there is an auto-fallow, a new job may be made, Personal Trainer. This is an exploit because people can auto fallow someone and that someone does laps around the city while everyone fallowing who has a fallowing character is off doing something else.

I don't know how the exploits can get skirted, but I'd really hate to see my actual skill points degrigate just because I can't log in everyday.

Posted by: glibdud May 16 2007, 08:04 AM

I gave some thought to the idea of permadeath only enacted in certain situations, like major story battles. But I eventually decided I was against it on the grounds that I don't think we really want to discourage people from joining the epic battles. So I say permadeath should pretty much be all or nothing.

As a potential compromise, how about instead of actual permadeath, once a character "dies" (which we could term as a near-death experience), he's left with a permanent disability (maimed limb, partial hearing loss, etc.). The character will never again be as good as he once was, but he's not rendered permanently unplayable. These disabilities stack the more the player is defeated, and we leave it up to the player to decide when it's time to start over.

On the subject of skill decay, I disagree with a single decay stat that can be universally worked off. For one thing, it allows characters to master every skill, since as long as they're doing *something*, a skill they haven't used in years will still be every bit as strong as it was.

And ideally (in my mind, anyway), you won't actually *see* your skills decay. I'm an advocate of hiding the numbers from the players. If you don't use a skill for a while, you may notice you're not quite as good at it when you go to use it again, but you won't be able to see the skill numbers ticking away.

The idea is to make it so that players don't have to even think about skill advancement or decay. They simply play the game like they want to play it, and over time the character's skills will reach a sort of equilibrium based on that play style.

Posted by: echorev May 16 2007, 08:21 AM

i think there should be some regions on the map where whatever power revives the player isn't strong enough to revive them there, so that there are certain perma-death areas on the map

Posted by: Alexander May 16 2007, 12:23 PM

Beautiful, just beautiful. I feel the same way, perfect. Now just say that Perma-death is a must and your heading the right way.

As for revival magic, sure why not. Have a few different resurrection spells in the game, that will make people who have them really wanted, a real sought after type of magic, if you keep it purely as divine magic then suddenly everybody will have a good reason to belong to as least one faith. But I'm against regional resurrection. This shut be more a matter of time. The more skilled the caster the longer they can wait with the casting of resurrection. If you add gods to the show and give them the ability to bring back anyone no matter how long its bin then people will have reason to start new characters and not give up on old ones that died over a year ago. As long as you remember their name for example you can do a special quest for a god and get the character back. Its kind of perma-death but with the common loop-holes of fantasy.

You can have a resurrection spell that if you cast it within x second of somebody’s death they come back, you can have resurrection spells that allow up to x days between the death and the casting and perhaps even have spells that allow up to x years of death. (Naturally all in-game time which perhaps moves faster then real time so people get to experience both day and night time frequently.)

If you bring those gods in the picture you can even get people questing to bring back old legendary characters of actual players so they can come back to fight in another war or do whatever is needed of them this time again. Characters might even be given out other players with the original players left the game, 'stealing' them in a sense. In that way you can even have evil players trying to revive old powerful characters to steal their power (their complete spell lists and stuff would still be part of the old character so...), this would mean that the tombs of old hero's need guarding against necromancers or evil priest and dark clerics and such. All adds the great possibilities if you where to allow it.

Posted by: Maxwell May 16 2007, 12:45 PM

Glibdud you nailed it, at least for me. All of those are fantastic ideas. Alex, I can understand the storyline behind the permadeath. The poor soul if he can't fight will have to hang up his sword eventually, maybe a healer comes along and offers him a second chance, but he must give him his soul (PERMADEATH) DUN DUN DUN. You could also have old men with limps who teach now instead of going into battle. Personally I don't think permadeath should be a must, an option definably. I do like your Idea of bring people back to steal their power and what not. As always I believe there needs to be a story behind it, not just thrown in there.

I don't believe that characters should see their skill by numbers they could just see it happen, As in Gothic. You start off by swinging a sword like crap, and then as you get better you notice it. Although some people need numbers so why not put a counter somewhere in there for them,make it an option or if make it on your character sheet, defiantly not in the normal HUD.

If you want to talk about permadeath go to Honis's thread http://www.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=4602&hl=Permadeath

Posted by: glibdud May 16 2007, 03:47 PM

To address the concerns about players wanting to see concrete feedback on their progression:

The way skills are internally represented in an MMO is with absolute numbers. But that's generally not how we see things. You don't look at your performance and say "Yeah, I'm probably about a 55 in Basketball." Instead, you see things relatively: "I'm a lot better than I was a year ago" or "This guy's gonna mop the court with me." This is really how it should be represented in-game. The former; judging your progress over a period of time; could be done by a trainer. The latter; comparing yourself to someone else; could be implemented with a variety of challenges. Want to know if you're stronger than another character? Arm wrestle him. Want to know who's better with a sword? Spar with him. These don't even need to be interactive activities... they can just be pieces of the interface that let characters see how they stack up with each other.

On a larger scale, periodic festivals could be accompanied by a number of contests of both combatant skill and craft skill. Prizes and honors can be given out to the winners, and you can see how you rank against a good portion of the population.

There are all sorts of ways to go with this that are much more interesting than watching numbers increment.

Posted by: echorev May 16 2007, 04:12 PM

!!!! i agree with everything glibdud said, there can be so many ways for testing speed, strength, etc. besides levels. certain things like medals could be given out for achievements, etc.

Posted by: Maxwell May 16 2007, 09:11 PM

Wow that diffinatly cemented that for me. Thanks Glibdud, very good Idea. Keep up the good work!!

Posted by: Alexander May 17 2007, 03:17 AM

No I don't think you got what I said. It's more along the lines of game mechanics that have loop holes in them for the players. Example: You lost a good character you liked, that character died and is now gone forever, perma-death, its dead, no life counters, no nothing. But! Since this is a fantasy game the characters have souls and there are gods and there is magic. Gods offer mortals the ability to chance the laws of nature by use of magic. And there exists magic that can bring back souls and restore their bodies. Different spells can exist to deal with different types of deaths. The character who got cut down with a swords is easier to restore then some idiot who fell into a lava pool if you know what I mean. Because of this some spells can restore characters of whose they only know their name, since this is the only thing that’s left of them in the world. But if only a name is enough what stops another player from resurrecting your character and claiming it as his own? You could make it so that if a character you once created gets resurrected you get a message about it and get the option to take control of the newly resurrected character and if you decline the resurrection fails. (See it as free will, you can't bring back a dead guy who wants to stay dead.) But! What if that player has long since stopped playing? He won't answer any messages or his account might not even exist anymore. That doesn't mean the end to the characters he ones had and are still stored as dead souls. Perhaps now you can allow anyone who resurrects them to take control of them? All that is still just normal resurrection, I haven't even started on the options you could have with necromancy magic.

It's not about penalties and giving up your soul, its about giving options to the players to make the game even more interesting, going beyond perma-death, allowing loopholes such a resurrections and even lichdom and other such transformations to cheat death. It adds precisely that kind of depth that I think people would want to see in a game, it allows for so much options.

The only 'story' you need to have for it is that of divine magic comes from the gods and thusly allows to easier power over life and death. The gods and the beings where most souls go to when they die so its natural that the servants of those gods can barter with them to get them back. No real story there, just the way its always bin in mythology and fantasy alike, everybody knows how it works so why go thro all the trouble to explain it all again?

I believe in a different method. First implement it and let the players make a story about it. Who cares about the story a developer makes to get a skill into the game, to the players its just another thing available for them. Instead you can just give it to them for what it is and the players will use it and the story emerges on its own. The rules on how skills work and when they become available is part of the story already, by not telling the story the players need to find it out for themselves and that also leaves them more free to fantasise about it instead of being spoon-fed stories that most either don't care about or won't even agree with.

Posted by: Honis May 17 2007, 08:48 AM

subject of Skill Degradation:

We could make it hard to skill up past a certain point. Once you reach the "Decent skill" level, probably 20-30% of the max level for that skill, your skills become much harder to get.

This may encourage some people to dabble in other skills, but not master all of them. Sure eventually someone may master then all, good for them for not having a life outside of a game.


If skill degradation is implemented, I'd only want it to be an effect due to idle time in game. This will keep shop owners weak and form a need to hire skilled adventurers.

I haven't said it in this thread, but have said it in other places that this subject pops up. I'm a weekend player. Why am I getting penalized because I have a life outside of the game? I couldn't even play my current mmo on the weekends this last semester because of my personal life and responsibilities.

Posted by: glibdud May 17 2007, 09:29 AM

Yes, there should be diminishing returns in skills. I think there should be a floor (say, skill of 25 out of 100) below which decay will not take place. Certain basic skills stick with you no matter how long you go without using them (the riding-a-bike principle). That should encourage dabbling. Above that, skills should be increasingly difficult to advance, and possibly also decay faster (maybe not... that'll require testing) as the skill gets higher. Perhaps we could also keep track of the highest score achieved in a particular skill, and enable increased advancement rate up to that point. In other words, after not using a skill for a long time and being out of practice, the character will be able to work himself back up into form in less time than it took him the first time around.

And absolutely skill decay should only be in effect while the player is actually in game. And I would also advocate shutting off decay under certain circumstances such as hanging out in a tavern or milling about at a festival. Otherwise, skill decay would discourage people from "wasting" time socializing. (In these cases, skill advancement will probably also need to be shut off to prevent exploiting... so call it a total skill freeze.)

Posted by: Alexander May 18 2007, 03:03 AM

Skill decay only in on-time? Bad idea.

If the game has a good working time schedule of days and weeks and such then it really doesn't make sense if you logged off for a month, came back and saw that your character was completely unchanged. I'm actually against logging of entirely.

Why not let them character continue on its own with a little AI? Would make more sense then having to hold off a siege because the players of the city are on vacation and the characters aren’t home right? If you have a little AI in the character you can even make them worry about their profession in your off-time, keeps those pesky skill from degrading too if your character has a daily routine it could follow. Hell, you could even have them improve without you lifting a finger if you wanted.

I'm also against a max level in any skill, just let it improve into infinity at ever higher experience cost and ever lower benefit. And just as glibdud pointed out with riding his bike, something’s are never forgotten or picked up rapidly. Allow skill decay to stop once it has reached 1/3rd of the highest that skill has ever bin and allow to regain those levels much faster as normal, 3 times the normal rate or even faster then that. Hey it could be different for each skill you have. Some races might have a racial keen eye for alchemy or wizardry or what not and the skill can be made to act accordingly.

Posted by: Honis May 18 2007, 08:24 AM

I like some of the ideas in here. The increased skill return rate would be good if skill decays. This will also reflect real life. It's easier to pick something back up and catch up to where you left off.

I'm not very keen on letting skills increase to infinity. This may encourage characters to pump up and become 'god like.' I don't like hte idea that one character can become powerful enough to conjour any quest that is thrown at them alone or in a small group of truelly elite players. (because mobs need to be preprogramed with there skills)



This idea is being discussed in here: http://www.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=6282&st=0


Some of us can't play for months sometimes. Do you think someone would come back to a game after a month or two if they knew there charater was going to be at some noob skill level? Even if we get a bonus getting the skill back, that just that much more work we'd need to put into the character. Work we had already put into the character. I agree it doesn't make the game anywhere nearly as realisc as it could be, but if it was realalistic, most of the player characters would be beggers and pesants not adventurers.

Posted by: glibdud May 18 2007, 11:08 AM

The way I envision it, while there would be a theoretical cap to the possible skill range, it would by design be impossible to achieve, so that no one ever reaches the point where there's nothing more to be done. This would be accomplished by a combination of decay and an exponential increase in the difficulty of advancing the skill. Eventually, the player reaches a point where he can only just barely keep up with the decay, and this is his equilibrium point for that skill

As an aside, so that people don't feel like they've "hit the ceiling" once they reach their equilibrium point, I would also like to see some sort of bonus given based on holding a skill at a certain level for a period of time. That way there are rewards for those who stick with a profession long-term.


Agreed. Players should be rewarded for the time spent in the game, and not punished for the time spent out of it. (And for that matter, not rewarded for the time spent out of it either.)

Posted by: Alexander May 18 2007, 12:38 PM

Oh please no, please, please, please don't go that way glibdud. That's the way WoW was made (I got nothing against WoW but I would love to see a different type game), by rewarding players for what they do. It's a game, you shut play it because you like the game whether its for the challenge, the scenery, the friends, or whatever but not because you get rewards for your time playing it. The game is its own reward, you spent time on it for your own reasons not because you are rewarded for it.

A game is supposed to be a game, a challenge, and although MMO's are so much more then this (they are certainly entertaining, fun, beautiful, etc), you can't forget that basic concept. Offering rewards and stepping stones isn't a challenge for the player, smiting the player with hardships is.

I've read an article on WoW's design and how its mob's where specifically designed to work as stepping stones so people didn't need to invest vast amounts of time in the game to get somewhere. They also tested them to be just the right difficulty so that people felt like having overcome a great obstacle but where actually hardly using their brains for it. Now... I like the huge amount of work it must have taken to get it just right and it is because of this that I actually like WoW, its not a bad game, in fact its a great and beautiful piece of work but just not what I look for in a MMO. It's a game for children because it doesn't require much thought to play.

I want to see the opposite ring true for a new game, one that truly goes beyond all the common elements of those kiddy games. I want a game that challenges the player to think.

A game like that doesn't necessarily require long hours of play. Like I said, if you use a little AI for your character you can return after a month and see that you character has actually only increased in skill. (Or your town got attacked and you got killed, heh-heh-heh.) But this I don't see as a reward, I see it as a calculated risk you take with your character. You can leave him unattended like that and reap benefits without lifting a figure but you can just as easily get discovered to be away and murdered or a victim of theft.

That's why I want a realistic fantasy styled game.

Posted by: glibdud May 18 2007, 01:12 PM

We're in complete agreement there.


I like the idea of characters hanging around and doing other things in-game while the player is out, but as Honis pointed out, this isn't the place for a general discussion about that. Unless PW decides to implement such a thing to the extent you're implying, which would require a pretty big shift in design, skill decay while off-line would be a mistake.

Posted by: Alexander May 18 2007, 04:20 PM

*sigh* As sad as I think it is I believe your right. And I don't have any faith, at all, in the developers and their ability to make something worth while. Luckily I'm a very patient guy and I'm willing to wait to be proven wrong.

Posted by: Battousai Mar 25 2008, 01:18 PM

I am not sure if this is the right area to post this(and i am sorry if it is not), but i was wondering if there would be any skill like a "beast mastery" skill where you could learn different abilities by fighting different monster types. (ie: while fighting against a rock golem you learn "rock skin" as a passive ability, an attack like "fire breath" when fighting a dragon) of course you'd have to limit the amount of abilities you can have at one time.

Posted by: Jerky Mar 26 2008, 12:57 PM

No, its not the wrong place. It's good to see an old face come back.

The skill system has not been finalized yet (I've been busy on other portions of the design, and for that matter nothing is finalized). I like the idea of passive skills such as the ones you suggest here. Consider it added to the list of features that need some discussion. Feel free to start a new thread on it.

Posted by: Marly Jan 28 2009, 10:25 AM

The idea's I have are uncountable, but there are some select idea's which instantly came to my mind when reading the other people their idea's. The idea's may not be of instant use, but it are some discussion points.

The MMORPG that is leading the business at the moment is, as you probably all know, is World of Warcraft. But, having played this game several times, I came to the conclusion that this game isn't perfect at all (I know 'perfect' is the wrong word, because nothing is perfect, but people seem to think WoW is 'the unbeatable MMORPG'). The mistakes that Blizzard is making with World of Warcraft shouldn't be made with this game.

World of Warcraft is based completely on leveling. I have certain complaints (comments) on this.
World of Warcraft does good by having no end-game content, but Blizzard is pushing you towards that point (the highest level) too much. It is good that there is end-game content, which wasn't available in the earlier MMORPG's, but end-game content is not what it is all about. The trick is to not let the user know that he is playing end-game content. That way there will be no rushing towards a certain level. All people should have the same experience, the same rights, etc. For example; Some things (like certain battlegrounds and mounts) are only available at the highest level. Raids can only be done when having reached the level cap aswell. I think you should either have no level at all or be having a level that's so high that it is almost impossible to reach. This way you prevent people from rushing to a certain level for having certain content which you don't have at a lower level.

Now I hear you think. "No level? Isn't that kind of boring?". Well, why would you want to base a game completely on level. I mean, why can't you base a game on other aspects. You could i.e. have skill levels. Your skill level will go up when having used it xxxx times (which increases per level) or having done xxxx damage with the certain skill. These are just examples, but I'm trying to say with this that the level is just an easy way of leading the way structured, but it doesn't stop at levels! There are numerous other possibilities, which will not have the players rush to a certain level.

I also think a player should have the possibility to be a mage with plate armour. It won't affect his playing, it would only slow him down enormously compared to cloth. Having said that, plate armour and magic is a bad combination, but it should be possible. Therefore, my idea on this is that a player should start blank. No choosing of races, he should start like any other player (except from his looks of course). He could choose to start leveling his melee class (which will be divided into the two-handed class, one-handed class and main-handed class (sword ans shield), which will in their turn be devided the sword class, mace class, dagger class ... U get the idea). When he has reached level 128 (not because this is the max, it's just an example) in one handed - maces, he could choose to start training his fire (magic) skills. Which can, on their turn, be leveled to a high level. This should be balanced.

The maximum level (either for your character and/or his specializations) should be unknown. I don't think should be made public, because this will keep certain players from having fun. They will instead rush to that level.

When gaining levels you access new kinds of attacks, but not specifically stronger attacks. I think it should be fun to make it a matter of luck. When you reach level 10 in one-handed maces i.e., you get the knockback skill (which does no damage, but knocks your character back), while you get that on level 50 aswell. Knockback could be used to drive your enemies into impossible positions. - This all are idea's of which I am not certain if they would be of good use to the game, but it are some idea's which could be worth considering in the future.

The main reason for posting this is to say that all content should be available at any level. A new user should have the same possibilities as an experienced user. I am not saying that by playing you shouldn't get rewards, I am saying that the system should be balanced towards having fun more then towards leveling. Games are games because you have fun with them in the end, and not for playing to reach a certain level and then have it stop. No, the level shouldn't decide where the fun ends, the user should decide, and it should be our main goal to provide a world in which the user will never get this feeling. A world in which players have the possibility of endlessly doing things, without being called a 'noob' just because you are a lower level or worrying about 'twinks' (players camping at a certain level to be the best at that level). All players should have the same gaming experience, regardless what their level or experience is.

My main reason for bringing this forward is because I believe this is the weakness of WoW. I know this is not the only weakness, and that WoW can not be improved on other points, but I'd like to start somewhere with this discussion.

Marly


EDIT: It seems that this is the wrong place for this post. Could someone direct it to the right place? Thanks.