Starting Out (after player creation) Options

[RicoSuave]

This obviously won't be put into place until the distant future, but I did want to get some ideas down before it's too late.

What is everyone's idea of starting-out items? For material possessions, I was thinking it would have to be based on either a storyline (everyone starts out with the same items more-or-less) or a character affinity-based inventory (based on what template of character your apt to become). If it is in fact based on a storyline, this topic is moot and we should wait until we come up with a plot. But if it is based upon a character's template type, how does everyone think this should be handled?

I'm partial to how UO did it. The basic idea is warrior-types started out with a bit of armor, a weak sword or something, and a bit of gold... everyone started out with a bit a gold. Mages had a few reagents in their inventory, a spellbook with a few more common spells, and a geeky-looking mage's hat. Blacksmiths had hammers. Bards had a harp (or something). Et cetera.

Personally, I would prefer to have PW be heavily based upon a plot/storyline -- preferably a "living" one that changes according to the sway of the playerbase... but that's a different thread. Anyway, I'd like to discuss this with all you so let me know what you all think. Thanks. :)

[ghedipunk]

Here's a third option that I've seen in single player games that don't have a specific class system, but do allow people to customize their character to what they believe their "class" should be... We could have the players choose their own starting inventory. The most common of this type is to give players a set amount of money, then to buy from a limited set of items before starting the game. If a player doesn't want to buy all of the starting items they're able to, then they have extra gold available to later buy better items, though most single player games discourage this by pitting the players against opponents before they're able to get to a store.

That way, players can equip their characters with what they want, each person would feel unique, (though with limited gold and limited items, there would be obvious overlap) and nobody is forced into a specific archetype in order to get the items that they want.

[Jerky]

@RicoSuave: Any UO-esque ideas are usually popular among PW fans.
You can never think too far ahead when planning an MMORPG. In fact, it is impossible to do so. If you do not plan for every conceivable scenario, then you will fail. "Player Start" is very important.
@GhediPunk: I like that idea.
Maybe a nice list of weak items that will allow the player to feel more in control over the character's start.

Something to mention here also is that for a MMORPG to be successful, the players' start is very crucual. A player's "first impression" of the game will be based on character creation and how the game starts. Every start should include some sort of TUTORIAL. Making a good tutorial is also very crucial, especially if it makes a difference to the player if he/she does it. This means making it somehow tie into the world and making the player feel like it is something worthwhile to do.

In Guild Wars, for example, it benefits the player a lot to level up as much as possible before leaving the tutorial world. This is because it is a lot harder once you leave, and leveling is slower. They built it into the storyline of the entire game. This is and example of doing it right. It needs to be more than a player choosing what class to be (which we won't be doing) by answering some questions or whatever. Making it a quest, and including it in some sort of storyline is a pretty good way to do it. Making it part of the world also helps players to feel part of the world, but we have to be careful here. For example, my first few minutes playing Lineage 2 were a nightmare. I was killed over and over by the same idiot and could not even start the game. This was a bad move for them to allow PvP in a newbie area, as I never played the game again.

Thoughts?

[Minthos]

[quote1146989469=Jerky]For example, my first few minutes playing Lineage 2 were a nightmare. I was killed over and over by the same idiot and could not even start the game. This was a bad move for them to allow PvP in a newbie area, as I never played the game again.

Thoughts?
[/quote1146989469]

CODE

The guys who made L2 are nubs :D

[ghedipunk]

Well, I think that there are three main milestones for players. The times will vary depending on the individual, but each time frame is as important as the last one.

The first milestone is the first hour. I think that includes patch time, since I tend to get turned off pretty quickly if I have to wait for the main client to download, run whatever basic installer there is, and start up the client only to see that I've got another three hours to wait until until the patching utility restarts itself and searches for even more patches... ;) (Anyone ever download EverQuest recently? Yeah... it was worse on dialup... ten hours of patching.)

I'm sure we all know the feeling of getting a new game... We're anxious to play, not to load patches. Of course, if we release disks for the game in physical stores, then the users are going to be patching... but if people are downloading directly, then we should have the most up to date client possible being served.

Also, in the first hour, players want to feel like they've accomplished something. (again, patching isn't an "accomplishment"... unless they're on dialup.) Spending 45 minutes looking at your character in 3rd person designing clothes that will be replaced by crappy armor as soon as the player can afford it may be fun for people who have played the game before, but shouldn't be a requirement for the noobs. Give the noob a sword and a shield, and point him at a wall to defend... ;) Then, either let the noob go fight the mobs, or let the noob go somewhere different entirely.

Here's a list of things that I think should be possible (likely or not for a complete noob? I don't know) in the first hour: Level up. Complete a quest. Buy better armor than the clothes they're born with. Face some sort of "boss" monster. (death is optional)

The second milestone is the first day. Let's assume (since I don't have hard stats) that the average noob spends 5 hours in game on the first day... The player should be able to take on at least one other quest in that time, prefferably a few. The player should have experienced death, unless they're being careful. The player should have a basic introduction to how the economy works... (going out, getting grain from a farmer... taking it to a miller to get flour, going to a baker and getting bread...???) The player should also be able to try their hand at making items... and the player should be able to level up at least once more, prefferably twice.

Has anyone ever noticed that there are faces in the background wood grain of the website? I keep staring at a teddy bear or cat or something...

The last big milestone comes at one month. By this time, leveling should be difficult while soloing (but personally, I don't think that it should ever be impossible), and the player should have enough of an understanding of the game to feel comfortable grouping. Once a player joins groups consistently, they're hooked, and can start working towards guilds, building cities, and making major changes to the environment and economy.

All of that doesn't solve the question of how to pick out a player's starting equipment.... We could always fall back on the cookie cutter templates, because of its simplicity and familiarity for people who have played other MMOs. Then again, I wouldn't like it, and from what I can tell, neither would the majority of people here. We could also have a screen come up during character generation with a set amount of equipment points... (Someone who chooses a spellbook wouldn't have enough points to also buy a badass sword, and will be stuck with a dagger or staff, or no melee weapon at all.) We could also have the character be funneled through the character generation... they'd have to pass by the noob item shopkeeper (controlled economy on this NPC who the characters can't get back to once they start fighting monsters.) The good side of the controlled economy NPC is that the NPC can answer questions and guide the character through picking their starting equipment... but players could also accidentally skip this NPC and end up in an active noob zone with no equipment, and end up getting their but spanked until their unarmored dodge skill and hand-to-hand fighting skill improves enough to get them enough experience to level up... Missing that first NPC would deffinitely lead to a very bad first hour.

[RicoSuave]

GhediPunk, that is a fantastic idea to have the new player choose their own equipment. And I do agree with Jerky that Guild Wars' construct was done well... however, we all know with our forum base, we can excel even higher! This is where I expect to see a lot of 'bad' ideas; and from those bad ideas, better ones will start to grow, until we are left with superb ones. So I think I'll be the first to throw out a 'bad' idea: :D

What if we had the new character thrown into some type of battle/quest/thing at the start? This quest would contain a portion of all the basics of the game. Perhaps have a slight battle going on in the distance (or maybe an arena), and have the new player need to run a errand for a guard (arena-keeper) to get some ingredients or reagents to either make a healing potion or cast a healing spell on one of the fighters.

The guard says, Thanks, and trusts him with another job of a bit more importance... repair someone's armor. {All the while getting little trinkets from the guard or whoever for completion}. After little a bit when the character does these little jobs/tasks, the heavy fighters will come back and rest for a bit. They'll compliment the new player on a job well done and offer to train the player up a bit in the area of the fighter's expertise. A different fighter comes along (maybe perhaps a mage) and says, "Hey, what you should really learn is magery. You can do [this] and [that] and even [something else]. Be wise and follow me." The guard then says, "You can choose to follow one of those if you want... but I could really use a hand here for a bit longer. If you stay, I'll teach you some real tricks about making armor/weapons/potions/whatever."

Then you go off and do as GhediPunk suggests and grab a few wares before beginning your serious training.

-- Yeah, I see the cat / teddy bear thing, too. Little freaky! :O --

If I understand GhediPunk correctly, from here is where the training begins with the levelling and different quests that will be crafted by the devs to distinctly raise all those skills that a certain profession has a tendancy towards. The above (bad) idea can be scaled and crafted to fit those milestones previously mentioned so that a player doesn't feel like he's being thrown into the enormous, virtual world with other players without being a bit tougher/better equipped... but more importantly, now knowing all the basics of how to play the game. No longer will there be NOOBS asking people how to do stuff, unless they want to change professions. Then again, I guess they can run off to the other trainer later accessable... but at a cost.

I guess the reason I feel that this idea might be worth being looked at for a good starting point is that no one likes feeling like a noob. But in order to get to that stage, two things are necessary: (1) Most importantly, the player needs to know how to play the game in the majority of little nuances. (2) The player needs to feel like they are needed from day zero -- at character creation. They need a purpose for their character. They need to know whatever they do DOES make a difference.

I guess the point I'm driving here is that character creation isn't something that happens with a few clicks of a mouse and assigning of skill points. A character is created by what he chooses to do, say, and become. Character creation is a process, not a step.

Feel free to rip apart my ideas; I have *very* thick skin. Please let me know though what you'd like to see so I/we can build up your ideas too. Thanks.

[Dwilf]

Kitting your new character out how you think they would be from a limited list of items is a very good idea, what a character wears and the items they use should be a individual thing. We should not force every figter type to start of with a sword when their character would want a mace.

As for the first hours/days of play, PW is supposed to be a dynamic world so this needs to be done well. Every character can't mend the same broken cart or kill the same minor boss at the end of "generic noob quest 1".
We also have to create oppertunities for all types of character to feel like they can do things not just the combat orientated types. Also the character that is not interested in helping out his fellow towsfolk should be free to go his own way and pick daisies if that is his wish.

[RicoSuave]

Well, that is true that if a player wants to go around picking all the daisies, they have that right. Unfortunately, being a MMORPG, by definition there will be interaction between players. Not only is this inevitable, it's critical.

Very true point though that some people, either by trade or by skill, don't want to be a "fighter." That's why I was hoping to have that part of the quests specific to the profession... and nothing says someone even has to choose a profession. I was shooting for the best way I could imagine to help out a new player get into their niche as quickly AND seamlessly as possible. Perhaps all this could be done clientside up to a point (like Guild Wars) and then switch and connect to the server. I liked it anyway (though I don't play it anymore).

[Maxwell]

I agree heavily with Ghedipunk grouping is one of the biggest parts of an MMORPG.

To add on to Ricos style of a 'bad' Idea:

The players should also be introduced to grouping.
This would be done by whoever is training you in your profession tells you they will only train you, if a small group will accpet you as a leader and lead them into a battle. This would allow them to group and fight in a group senario. It would also make some quick friends and most Players will stay in the group to help out the others with the quest allowing them to be followers instead of leaders.

Bad and terriable, attack it at will as well.

Another thing I find in MMORPGs is every single one is dfferent. It is nice to have someone show you the ropes. Maybe a NPC will join a noob group allowing. Showing them what to do with a few small things.

The reason I say this is I just started a UO shard and have had help from people showing me the ropes. It makes much more enjoyable and you learn a little faster.

The NPC would teach them how to tame through attacking. Maybe the NPC could react a little bit to differnent situations.
Or

The NPC could just follow them around helping them. I know it seems like a tip of the day or Help Box walking around but it kind of gives the imperssion that they are actually learning from someone.

Once again another Idea to make better Enjoy :D

[Bobsalot]

I like this idea, but I see some potential problems with it if you are planning on having a natural/dynamic economy.

Where does the starting money come from? This false addition of value to the system might upset it, I dont know. The again, just the simple addition of demand (in the form of the new player ) could aswell.

If you do give them money, I'd say give it to them and let them walk around in the city(s) and shop like evrybody else. This will let them feel a part of the world rather than having them select from a noob list (haha). They could also choose to spend 5 on a sword and five on a shield or all 10 on a spear (or something).

I would not make it mandatory to complete a quest, even in the beginning. In fact I would rather not have pre-made quests at all but thats a different matter.

If you have a tutorial, make it short and easy to understand. As well as the option to skip or go back.You want to teach them onloy the fundamentals to get started, later they can refer to an in-depth help guide.

I would only give them the most basic clothes at the outset.

A way they could gain money and knowledge would be through training programs (by npcs if need be, by pcs if possible) where they could work and learn a bit of everything and be poaid a minimal amount. Or become an apprentice and be paid less than a knowledgable worker but they would be gaining knowledge as well.

But you don't want anything that would confuse or restrict them.

[RicoSuave]

... Where does the starting money come from? This false addition of value to the system might upset it, I dont know. The again, just the simple addition of demand (in the form of the new player ) could aswell.

The initial money would obviously come from the person for whom they were running errands.

If you do give them money, I'd say give it to them and let them walk around in the city(s) and shop like evrybody else. This will let them feel a part of the world rather than having them select from a noob list (haha). They could also choose to spend 5 on a sword and five on a shield or all 10 on a spear (or something).

I would not make it mandatory to complete a quest, even in the beginning. In fact I would rather not have pre-made quests at all but thats a different matter.

They would be able to shop around like anyone else. The purpose of having newbie quests is so that if you see something that a vendor is selling called a 'Fuhowgads' for 5 gold, you would know what it does. Newbie quests I strongly feel are important to having a player get their feet wet. By your model of just throwing-them-out-there, you leave the player to discover (I guarentee) on their own how to play the game. Rarely, will you find a player so advanced that they are willing to throw away their game-/relaxation-time just to try to teach someone else, for 10 minutes, how to open a chat window, or pick a daisy, or whatever basic function they need to do before they can start adventuring.

I'm sure every player wants to get playing as fast as they possibly can (you're right), but realistically which is more likely: (1) having a quest/tutorial to teach them how to jump into the game with both feet after a short time; (2) having them get their toe wet, then their ankles, then their knees, et cetera, up to their waist, then realizing they need to start over to get on the "right path"; or (3) having them choose which of the previous two they wish to do.

If you have a tutorial, make it short and easy to understand. As well as the option to skip or go back.You want to teach them onloy the fundamentals to get started, later they can refer to an in-depth help guide.

I actually prefer playing the game and gaining skill and learning like that as opposed to reading some manual offline.

A way they could gain money and knowledge would be through training programs (by npcs if need be, by pcs if possible) where they could work and learn a bit of everything and be poaid a minimal amount. Or become an apprentice and be paid less than a knowledgable worker but they would be gaining knowledge as well.

But you don't want anything that would confuse or restrict them.

True! That's how I imagine the player earning gold/money/goods at the start of the game. They will train with their own, personalized NPC (or shared online) until either they feel that they can make it on their own, or they reach a certain level.

Bob, It sounds like above you are using knowledge and skills interchangably... please don't. There is a big difference between the two. The character gains skills, the player gains knowledge. Please don't think I'm digging into you just because I disagree with your ideas B) . Not only are they welcome by all, but I respect you for stating your opinion so clearly straight-forward. Hear from you again soon...

[Bobsalot]

Rico,

Thanks for the reply, and no I don't think you're "digging into me."

I think I understand your views on tutoring new characters with quests or whatnot, which I think is a good idea, but something that should be optional. Like you said, there is a differrence between skills (character) and knowledge (player).

If a player has played before or has played with a similar interface or just thinks they could learn it on their own, it should be otional for them to run through a tutorial or quest that would teach them this "knowledge."

If they choose to go through with the tutorial/quest, it would be ideal for that tutorial/quest to introduce them to the game as you said: slowly (or toe->foot->leg->torso->head).

Maybe this is what you had in mind and I just didnt understand you?

Also, I wasn't saying that an in-depth help/guide would be their only way of learning, rather it would be there either for people that skipped ahead or those that just want to refresh their memory.

Basically, I think the least amount of restrictions (quests/tutorial restrictions, not skill restrictions) even from the beginning I think the better.

[Jerky]

...but something that should be optional.

Keep in mind that we have been pushing for this ideal the whole time (I know I have been). Almost all the ideas set forth in the forums can be integrated as long as there is a way out (an option). Whether this is just flicking a switch from your options menu or choosing when you create your character remains to be seen, but I agree all the way on that point. There is no possible way to please everyone, but giving them an option to do it either way is the best compromise. Sure there still will be player who are pissed off that others can choose the other way than them, but that is much better than them being mad because they cannot do something.

[Areena]

In a flash of light and dust you appear before a man standing near a shallow reflecting pool in a massive courtyard. The man looks up at you and smiles.

"Greetings <name> I was just being shown of the great things that you'll accomplish someday. But seeing as the ether just bore you I imagine that you have some questions. My advisors would be more than happy to help you learn of this new world, but you have the look of one who isn't so dimwitted either. Perhaps you would like to set forth immediately on the adventures that await you. Either way I would like to make sure that you have some help along the way."

<Option A>"Talk with the king's advisors(Take the Tutorial)"
<Option B>"I think I can manage with a bit of money(Buy your own equipment)"


just an idea

[Brotoi]

There needs to be at least two different starting paths into the game, both originating at the conclusion of character creation. The first path would be the Tutorial, naturally.

Before we can seriously look at how to answer the problems created by the non-tutorial path, we need to first establish what the condition of the character will be at that point in time where they leave the Tutorial and enter the main world.

Okay then. Let's assume a basic tool set includes a sword, axe, knife, scythe, and hammer. We'll call this BTC, for Basic Tool Cost. Then there is also BAC (Basic Armor Cost), BSC (Basic Skill Cost), and BPC (Basic Pet/Mount Cost). After all, this will be a skill-based, crafting from raw materials, exploration kind of MMORPG, right?

The Tutorial needs to provide an introduction to all the basic systems (Combat, Crafting, Harvesting, Refining, Husbandry) along with basic commands for movement, combat, harvesting, crafting, refining, acquiring pets/caring for pets, chatting, getting help, buying and selling, as well as providing an explanation of the interface.

So...

A player makes a new character. New character has a choice of entering the tutorial or entering the main world. (Perhaps using the interface suggested by Areena.)

I'm assuming the tutorial will be an isolated instance of some kind. During the Tutorial the new player is not able to interact with people, activities, and the economy of the main world. New characters will only be interacting with other new characters who are inside the Tutorial portion of the world.

The Tutorial zone itself can be a kind of school or academy with the TUTOR NPC in the center of large courtyard. Each "lesson" takes the player to a different NPC who specializes in that body of knowledge. The specialized NPCs have an introduction to their body of knowledge and a list of tasks which will help the player explore that body of knowledge. After completing each specialized program, the player returns to the TUTOR NPC for the next lesson.

When the new character zones into the Tutorial, they are greeted by an opening message from the NPC that will conduct the Tutorial. This message includes a great, big, impossible to miss button that appears here and nowhere else that says, "Close this window".

The Greeting text is along these lines:

"Welcome to PW-World! I am TUTOR and I will introduce you to our world and how to live in it. Please left click on one of the links below (or select the appropriate number using the number keys across the top of your keyboard).

1. Learn about the world (History, Legends, Peoples and Dieties)
2. Learn about the interface (Movement, Default interface, Customization)
3. Learn about the skill system (An explanation of what skills are and how to improve them)
4. Learn about equipment (An introduction to items, including weapons, armor, harvesting tools)
5. Learn about crafting (An introduction to materials, tools, and crafting)
6. Learn about combat (Entering combat, selecting different skills)

Remember, you can repeat each lesson and task as often as you like and you can open this dialogue again by left-clicking on me."

In this way the player is introduced to each system in turn and is allowed to repeat lessons for areas they have a hard time learning. At the end of the Tutorial, the player has advanced every major skill a fixed amount and has acquired the basic tool for performing entry-level tasks in that skill. They leave the Tutorial with a sword, a knife, an axe, a scythe, a hammer, a complete set of armor, and either a pet or a mount. Once they enter the main world they can then launch their virtual career in any direction they please and will still have the basic tool for other areas if they decide to broaden their horizons later.

If the player does not enter the Tutorial, they receive cash equivalent to: BTC + BAC + BSC + BPC and can then either buy those items at the starter town merchants or invest their cash in purple baby buggy bumpers and hope to make a fortune playing the market (assuming we will have an auction house of some kind). The disadvantage to skipping the Tutorial would be starting without the fixed skill advancement it provides.

In my opinion the absolute worst thing we could do is dump a new character in a starter town with no cash, no clothes, and no weapon, and then expect them (even if they have the experience to find the quests and do them!) to run delivery errands for their first hour and a half of game play. I, personally, do not want to see a single delivery-only quest anywhere in the game. NO FEDEX QUESTS = happy gamers!

[Areena]

brotoi, those are pretty much the exact same lines i was thinking laong for the tutorial. I like that the only real benefit that you get from the tutorial besides learning the interface and how to play is a very minor amount of skill gain, which should be negligible (perhaps you only gain skill your first time through a tutorial) and if you skip the tutorial basically you have to play a whopping 5 minutes to gain as much skill as u would in the tutorial.