Meeting Log 01/11/2005 Options

[Mikhail]

* Mikhail sets mode: +m
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Crevin
* Mikhail sets mode: +v warn
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Strangerr|afk
* Mikhail sets mode: +v silmaril
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Mouglue
* Mikhail sets mode: +v faithless
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Kalldrexx
* Mikhail sets mode: +v hsae
* Mikhail sets mode: +v chicken_smugler
* Mikhail sets mode: -v chicken_smugler
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Althalus
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Kathera
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Kirsten_
<Mikhail> Ok guys
<Mikhail> now that we are all on the same page.
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<Mikhail> There are some assumptions we have to make
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Mole
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<Mikhail> we cannot use wish in any way
<Mikhail> marc made that fairly clear
<Mikhail> So we start a new project
<Mikhail> or do we join someone else's project in development?
<Mikhail> we have had a couple developer teams message us about perhaps combining efforts
<Mikhail> me and Mortideus that is
<faithless> What other project follows the Wish concepts so closely? Or do we even want to continue using the great concepts used in Wish?
<Mikhail> Now i think this deservs some careful consideration
<Crevin> There isn't a current project with all we found in Wish. if we try to group together many of the Wish supporters will decrease.
<Mouglue> I beg to differ
<Mikhail> ok maybe thats something we have to get clear first, what do we want to accomplish
<Crevin> I mean try to group on a DIFF project
<warn> that could be a pretty good option. more people = more knowledge combined, but that could be bad too.
<Kathera> i think we should start our own
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Lux_
<Crevin> Yes Warn, because we would be *Joineing* their current ideas/project.
<Kathera> based on the principles of wish
<Crevin> We need our own
<Crevin> Exactly
<Mouglue> May I say something about the idea of joining another project.
<Mouglue> ?
<Crevin> Indeed:)
<faithless> Go ahead.
<Mouglue> As you may or may not have guessed by now. I have strong ties to a game called Boundless adventures.
<Mouglue> www.boundless-adventures.com.
<Mouglue> I will honestly say I only first heard about Wish about a year ago.
<Mouglue> probably not as long as some of you.
<Mouglue> But I have been involved in "BA" for over 2 years.
<hsae> ok, i just finally caught up reading on wish refugees... what's up gang!??
<Mikhail> www.projectwish.com/news.php go read more
<Mouglue> One thing I have noticed is they are VERY simular in what they are/were trying to accomplish.
<Mouglue> No "Zones", No "Levels" , Dynamic Skill system.
<Mouglue> Hell of a crafting system.
<Crevin> Did any of them beta Wish in 2.0?
<Mouglue> No Mob Spawn Points.
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<Mouglue> I did not. But I know a couple people who have.
<Mouglue> That being said.
<Mouglue> I know what it takes to get a Game to the Alpha stage.
<Mouglue> BA is currently in Alpha.
<Mouglue> Its a lot of Hard work.
<Mouglue> I am not doughting (spell check) anyones abilities or dedication, but its rough.
<Lux_> BA is owned by a company that would be profiting correct?
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<hsae> ok, i just read the news
<faithless> Is BA going to be commercial?
<Mouglue> Yes and no
<Mouglue> Its a private company
<Mouglue> Right now there is very few staff.
<Mouglue> I dont know how much I can "Legaly" say at this point about that.
<Crevin> So in conclusion anything we would contribute to BA would eventually be used to make money for other people?:)
<Mouglue> Unless you got hired on as Staff. Yes.
<Mikhail> ok so that leads us back to why are we here
<Mole> has anyone considered worldforge? it's very infant right now, but it might be a starting place
<faithless> Worldforge has been in development since 1998 and it has gotten nowhere as people have said...
<Lux_> i think project wish is unclear at this point if they want to work with a commercial company, some people here seem to be afraid of losing the wave of recent community support
<Crevin> Hmmm I wonder.....My friend wrote a book about multiplayer online programming, and had an affinity for UO, and he's rich:)
<Kathera> *g*
<Mikhail> Lux, very accurate
<Lux_> and i can tell you this
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<Lux_> it is possible to develop games with community-non-paid-support, many half life mods have professional coding, modeling, etc
<Crevin> Personally I don't want to work for a commercial company:) The BEST games are created by those who enjoy doing it, not to get rich by it:)
<Lux_> but with an MMO it is a little bit different
<Crevin> I agree Lux, that is what we should shoot for.
<Mole> well there are a few different options. which of these haven't been discussed
<Mole> - do nothing
<Mole> - create a game from scratch
<Mole> - use various freeware/middleware to develop our own
<Mole> - join somebody else's project
<Lux_> you have servers, money has to be collected for those servers and there are more development costs (hl mods use Valve's engine)
<Mouglue> Crevin Lux, BA is being created by gamers. Hell None of us are even getting Paid.
<Mikhail> do nothing have not been discusssed
<Crevin> But
<Mouglue> sorry I just had to throw that out.
<Mikhail> Ok I want to move the conversation really quickly, lets go back to the fundamental question
<Crevin> There is a staff that was assembled in the fact one day BA will be paid and THEY themselves will be paid for it.
<Mikhail> Why are we here? we have several reasons for still being here
<Mouglue> Anyway, All I ask is you take a look at the web site. If you like what you see. Great. if not let me know what it is. Either way I think I stil want to be involved in this Project WIsh.
<Mikhail> and what do we want to acoomplish
<Mikhail> thanks for the input mouglue
* Mikhail sets mode: -v Mouglue
<Mikhail> ok, so what do we want to do
<Crevin> So is there anyone on board yet who can even begin to comprehend how to start a game from scratch? Or do we want to start a group in SEARCH of talented developers willing to help the project?
* Mikhail sets mode: -v Crevin
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Skywisenight
<Mikhail> welcome skywise
<Mole> crevin makes a good point. how many people here know how to develop a game server from scratch?
<Kathera> ok, i think there might be some skilled coders and designers amongst us
<hsae> man, i am getting so lost... i can't turn away for one minute without falling a full screen behind
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Crevin
<Mikhail> ok i think we all agree we want to give it a try
<warn> i think we need to get a list of who can do what and how well.
<warn> to sort of get a look at where we stand on our own
<Kathera> is there anyone who has experience in actually leading and coordinating such a big project who is willin to help?
<Mikhail> me
<Mole> i do as well
<Mikhail> and i havent been on a project this big
<warn> as do i
<Mikhail> mine was a little smaller 10 devs or so
<Mikhail> including artists and all
<hsae> all i have any experience with is the forum
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<warn> we should figure out who can do what and how well.
<hsae> so i'd be happy to take that off mikhail's hands so he could concentrate his efforts on other things
<Mikhail> ok done
<Lux_> I have experince programming in c++, a broad range of QA experince
<Kathera> Mikhail do you have ever laid out bigger class hierarchies?
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<Kathera> or mole?
<Mikhail> nope
<Lux_> gota run bbl
<silmaril> I have 10 years of programming experience, 8 with c++ and 4 in a professional environment
<Crevin> I'll contact my good friend who has written a book on Multiplayer Game programming, and does it himself, and was a huge fan of UO genre of gaming, and makes plenty of money:) I'll ask him if he's willing to help in anyway.
<Mole> i have lots of exp in both (proj management and coding)
<Kathera> sounds promising, silmaril so you think you might be able to take hte lead? and would you be willing to?
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Mouglue
<Kathera> Mole and as for motivation?
<silmaril> Kathera: no, I wouldn't. I don't have the time :/
<Kathera> i see
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<Mikhail> ok mole i think you would be our best shot at this point, i have taken time to talk toyou
* Mikhail sets mode: +v AzumiWISH
<Mole> Mikhail you and i will need to talk offline for a bit about this before i commit to anything. :) (i'm still at work right now)
<Mikhail> ofcourse
<Mole> there is a good chance that i can manage this project though
<AzumiWISH> Any use for a skilled SQL2K database manager and musician? if so then you can count me in the team
<Mikhail> yes azumi
<hsae> i can do voice-over
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<hsae> i'm an actor (amateur, but i have some skill)
<faithless> Voice actors anyone? ;-)
<Mole> at this point in the game, it is too early to all pipe in with what skills we have (or don''t have)
<Kathera> ok, you could count me in as developer, having some years of c++ experience... but university goes first, so i cannot make any promises how much time i could put in
<Kathera> ok
<Mole> things like project goals, how we're going to go about meeting those goals, etc need to be talked about first.
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<Crevin> I suggest getting a team together before any of that Mole:)
<Mikhail> ok, we are getting a team together
<Crevin> Yes. Hopefully my friend will help
<Mole> once you know what your goal is, then you collect your programmers, musicians, artists, etc
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<Mikhail> ok so lets get the goal working
<Mouglue> If I might make a suggustion. I would get your team together and develop "Game Docs" first.
<Kathera> i agree with mole... making a ready set team doesnt make sense, if we dont know what we wanna acchieve
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<Crevin> Agreed@Mouglue
<Mole> agreed, Mouglue
<Mole> what would all come after the goals, etc.
<Mikhail> ok so what is our goal?
<Mikhail> everyone post their idea of our goal
<Mikhail> 1 sentence
<Mikhail> and then quiet please
<Crevin> To create a game experience nastalgic of Wish:)
<Mikhail> To recreate an UMMORPG that enbodies the advancements that wish brought and creates the same atmosphere
<Skywisenight> Well put Crevin. That is what you want to make. Not wish, but the feeling associated with.
<Kathera> making a game that supports roleplaying experience and immersion as wish did and maybe even a bid further
<Mortideus> and RPG that is about storyline and having fun, over achievement in level
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<Mikhail> ok so far we are all saying the same thing: wish feel, wish live content, wish setting, but different
<Mole> skill based vs level based?
<Mikhail> yes
<AzumiWISH> Goal : To be part of team and to have fun whilst developing something with the feel of WISH which many can enjoy
<Kathera> may i speak a bid longly?
<Mole> go
<Kathera> i would like to basically keep skill based system
<Kathera> maybe add some skill gain at failure, but thats detailed
<Crevin> Skill based, with skill increase based on usage.
<Kalldrexx> I would say skill because you can't get the same level of custimization and the feel of not caring about advancement with level
<Kathera> to support players, that are not to familiar with roleplaying add something
<Kalldrexx> unless you make a fairly intricant (sp?) system
<faithless> Intricate.
<Kathera> make some part of code, that based on how much players speak to each other emote and roleplay gives experience
<Mikhail> experience for what?
<Mikhail> if it is skills based
<Mikhail> where do you put the experience, what skill is role playing?
<AzumiWISH> We also have to note that there are players out there which do enjoy a leveling treadmill over any type of content. Take this into consideration when designing your level/skill gains and accomodate these types of person. It won't be an easy task to find a balance but there certainly does need to be one.
<Kathera> if you have enough experience you gain level, those level would do nothing but moving your skillborder a bid further up
<Kathera> if you dont roleplay you cannot proceed in skills above a certain point
<Mikhail> i dont liek that
<Kathera> the idea behind that is to make powergamers have to roleplay
<warn> i think it's a bit early to make decisions on specific game content
<Mikhail> we are not making manditory roleplaying
<Mikhail> agreed with warn
<Kalldrexx> Warn has the right idea
<Crevin> Frankly forced RP won't cut it. Also in my opinion I enjoyed the Wish skill system over all else. Why change it?
<faithless> Role-playing was never an integral part of the Wish experience.
<Kathera> for people already roleplaing this would not change a thing in the feeling of the game
<Crevin> Agree@Warn
* Mikhail sets mode: +v BnC
<BnC> Thank you =)
<warn> yeah, but some enjoy the game differently. not everyone likes to roleplay. some people like startin up a char seeing how fast they can lvl them up.
<warn> it should be open to everyones style of gameplay.
<Mole> how do you tell whether or not a person is role playing "good"?
<AzumiWISH> What we need right now is concept art , concept music , concept everything. Submit concept work to be reviewed by all developers
<Crevin> Agreed
<Skywisenight> you can't make a game for *everyone* Don't forget this.
<Crevin> We're just pointless arguing over concepts far away
* Mikhail sets mode: +v KesyaAndrantos
<Mole> if you're going to have a skill system, then it needs to be based on physical skills, not subjective skills
<KesyaAndrantos> May I say something real quick.
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<warn> Skywisenight > true, but it should be as broad as possible.. closing it to forced RP would be a bad thing.. in my opinion
<Mikhail> shoot
<Mole> agreed, Skywisenight. you have to pick what you want and work on those things, otherwise the project will be doomed to failure
<KesyaAndrantos> Right now, we don't have anything other than we want to emulate WISH in some fashion...
<Mikhail> thats what we are doing...
<KesyaAndrantos> Our next step should be to develop a set of features that we want to include overtime into the game.
<Crevin> Ok enough concept talk. Nothing is being accomplished. Focus now should be on talking to all your friends/people online/offline you may know, or someone who knows someone....who has the skills to help this project...then if they would be willing to help. Our GOAL now should be to get a bigger team going, then discussions with this team can continue from there
<KesyaAndrantos> But once we have this list, then shouldn't get into the details such as how the skill system will work.
<AzumiWISH> Would be nice if we could use some of the textures for things like ground , buildings etc which WISH used. Not only would this save time but it would give that original WISH feel to it
<AzumiWISH> with permission ofcourse
<Mikhail> ok agreed kesyaandrantos
<Skywisenight> of person that made them could make new ones.
<Mole> i'd stay away from reusing any of their stuff, AzumiWISH. we would want to avoid legal issues
<Mikhail> OK everyone, lets work on this feature list, i think starting with skill system is good, we need to come up with things we want lets make a large list
<KesyaAndrantos> So for example, we want a skill advancement system of the sort, some sort of combat system, and crafting.
<silmaril> Skywisenight: :)
<Mikhail> :-)
<faithless> Persistant world. Skill system. Player-run economy. Dynamic monster spawns. Wish-similar combat system.
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<Mikhail> ok lets start naming things we want in it, i will put it in a list, and then we can filter out conficts
<Mole> good list faithless
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<faithless> They're the core of Wish in my opinion. The integral parts of the gaming experience.
<Skywisenight> crafting?
<Mikhail> yes
<faithless> Ah, yeah, forgot crafting. ;-)
<Mole> how about single vs multiple "server" model. how many people would you want to support in the world at any one time?
<Kathera> the wish combat system had a major drawbak in my eyes
<Mikhail> what is that?
<Crevin> If I had my way I'd re-create Wish as it was, and add in a combat system more advanced like the one used in Risk Your Life.
<Kathera> i wanted to play a necro, but as spells needed much longer refresh/casting time i found my char hitting with the sword as long spells were blocked
<warn> personally i didn't like having to click the button everytime to attack.
<Mikhail> mole, i think that question can be better answered after we get the game more concretely drawn out
<Kathera> this lead to my char having double sword skill than necro
<faithless> I think with more skills, more in-depth and interactive skills, the combat system could've become extremely interesting.
<Mole> let's not look at the specific system details right now. concentrate on the big picture. we'll narrow focus as we go along
<Kathera> well ok
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<Mole> Mikhail, how many people you want your server to be able to handle will affect the outcome of the game design
<AzumiWISH> One button to perform all skills in a "combination" window. The skills in this window are any 3 of your choice and will be performed in order.
<Mikhail> azumi General
<Mikhail> i think its a more compicated than a number
<Mikhail> It depends on what type of servers we use
<AzumiWISH> Qued moves need not be server side
<Mikhail> i think for a good community we need to put in 10k at once atleast
<Mikhail> testing should be done at1k
<AzumiWISH> 10k is a good number
<KesyaAndrantos> I've got to go all. I'll check back the site to see whats come up tomorrow.
<Mikhail> we need enough to support a player economy
)
<Kathera> thatfor we have to work out an extremely scalable concept for server communications...
<Mikhail> yup
<Mikhail> i think building a scalable server software will be our greatest accomplishment
<warn> yeah
<AzumiWISH> But without the basic building blocks to throw all of these ideas onto. It's a long off goal. The building blocks? : The server ofcourse and the bandwidth required. All of this costs money which is also a very heavy building block that will need lifting into place.
<Kalldrexx> I think we need to lower our goals a bit
<Kalldrexx> building a scalable server by ourselves ins't some small task
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<Kalldrexx> You guys also have to realize something
<warn> true. but there isn't a finite timeline. this will take a while
<Kalldrexx> We are a community based development team, not a company
<Kalldrexx> We aren't motivated to get stuff done quickly by money
<Kalldrexx> This is why worldforge is moving at a snails pace
<Kalldrexx> We have to start small
<Mikhail> ok for the start
<Mikhail> 100 people
<Kathera> disagree
<Mikhail> 1 city sized map
<AzumiWISH> 100 people will require a lot of machine power
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<faithless> I know an emulated WoW server which had the basic features of WoW within a month. They had 500 players maximum and it was enough for proper testing....
<Kalldrexx> we can't start thinking of player numbers
<Mole> agreed
<AzumiWISH> agreed
<Mikhail> player numbers determines world size
<Kalldrexx> first of all before we start getting something relevant towards gameplay not many will play
<Kathera> but we have to work out scalability from the start on
<silmaril> no
<Mikhail> i thought we had basic gameplay
<Mikhail> Persistant world
<Mikhail> Skill system
<Mikhail> Player-run economy
<Mikhail> Dynamic monster spawns
<Mikhail> Wish-similar combat system
<Mikhail> crafting
<Kalldrexx> no
<Kalldrexx> I mean actually implmeented
<Kalldrexx> i'm talking about implementation not concepts
<silmaril> first thing would be to get a small prototype to have something to show. that would both motivate the developers and get a playerbase interested
<Kalldrexx> exactly
<silmaril> motivation will be the biggest problem in an online dev team
<silmaril> trust me, I
<silmaril> 've been there
<Mikhail> also forgot dinamic quests
<Mikhail> ok
<Kathera> i think it wont be possible to integrate scalability that easily as if it was planned into the concept from the start
<Skywisenight> I agree with simaril.
<Mole> so far, Kalldrexx and silmaril have suggested the worldforge model
<Kalldrexx> O.o
<silmaril> take all possible shortcuts, use all free available tools and get something *working*
<Kalldrexx> I never said the worldforge model (never even knew wthat hte model is)
<Mikhail> ok i am down with that for a preview version
<Kalldrexx> all I know is worldforge runst oo slow but they are primarily research basically
<Mole> you never said it specifically, but that is what you are talking about.
<silmaril> then you can say "hey, see here. we actually made something"
<AzumiWISH> Oh yes motivation will become an issue later in development. When people have started thinking "oh well I can't be bothered to do this"
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<BnC> Honestly, before we start talking gaming concepts and ideas we should ask ourselves do we have enough resources to get this started? Everyone that has a skill to contribute to this project should email it to contact@projectwish.com. From that you assign teams. A then talk concepts. Just a thought..
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<Mole> start with a small server to get something out. start small and prove concepts. then add to it. do this often to keep people intersted
<Mole> WF forgot the part about doing it often
<Mikhail> Ok then its decided
<warn|brb> agreed w/ mole
<Mikhail> We make small demo
<Mikhail> using world forge
<Mikhail> to prove we can
<silmaril> mole: yup. that's why using an engine like NeL is a good idea. you get a lot for free, and can swap modules step by step when expanding the system
<Mortideus> Could people actually hold off on emailing for a couple min
<Kathera> Mole, as you might have more experience with this: do you think integrating scalabilty into a ready framework of a prototype would be possible?
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<Kathera> i doubt it...
<Mikhail> yeah its not a shortcut
<Mikhail> so we shouldnt take it
* Mikhail sets mode: +v KevinMc
<Mole> you have to account for scalability from the beginning if that is one of your goals. trying to "fix it up" later is too much of a problem
<KevinMc> Hi all - sorry I'm coming in a bit late here.
<Kathera> thats jsut i was about when saying planning on high numbers early on should be considered
<KevinMc> Can I add some thoughts on engine selection, however?
<Mikhail> mole but i mean if this is just a demo, we need to take all short cuts even if it costs us a bit of time later on
<silmaril> Kathera: I totally disagree. the project could end up spending months on a backend without anything to show for it
<Kathera> not allocating the resouces to do so, but integrating it into the concept
<silmaril> take what's free and has been proven to work
<Kalldrexx> if the code is written right, we should be able to expand NeL to suite our needs
<Mole> take a look at the way WF is designing their system.
<Mole> yes, they are SLOW
<KevinMc> For the folks who don't know, I lead a team developing a small-scale persistant world game. I've reviewed a decent number of engines in the process of selecting ours.
<Mole> but the design strategy is sound. small pieces that integrate into a larger whole.
<KevinMc> WorldForge, as a basis, might be a possibility. However, we'd have to do most of the work ourselves. WF is a VERY slow project, and I don't expect them to finish this decade. ;)
<Mole> they split the whole project up into lots of parts. each part (when done) combines into a whole
<Mole> yes, WF is much too slow.
<silmaril> Mole: yea, I think a non-modular approach would be suicide from birth
<Mikhail> any other options kevin
<KevinMc> Nel is an option, but the code that was released under open source is fairly basic; a lot would have to be added, mostly in terms of tools for game design and management.
<Mikhail> agreed with mole
<KevinMc> I'd guess the best two would be Torque or Realmcrafter.
<silmaril> tools for game design and managment are freely available
<KevinMc> Torque is a GREAT platform, very easy to use, very well documented, with multiple MMOs under development already, including Adellion (whose creator I correspond with and might be co-working with on another project)
<Mikhail> any disadvantages?
<KevinMc> RealmCrafter is in beta. Assuming Solstar finishes it, RC will be THE way to go - fully integrated client/server engine and MMO-creation toolset.
<Mole> Mikhail, i suggest listing out all of the available options, then forming a subteam to examine each one and look for pros and cons. then have them report back and we choose the best option for what the project goals are
<KevinMc> Bad side or Torque? It was designed as an FPS; the netcode is superb, but needs to be scaled back for an RPG. There is no built in persistance, although many people have added it. It's all C++, and requires strong coding skill to use.
<Mikhail> which out of all those would we be able to create a game in the fastest?
<Mikhail> can someone pm me pros and cons of world forge and Len
<faithless> NeL. ;-)
<Mikhail> nel
<Mikhail> right
<KevinMc> Realmcrafter bad sides: it's in beta; right now, it's not in a usable state, as not all features are in and working. It could fold; beta's can do that. =/ If it completes, it'll still be a few months before we can use it.
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<KevinMc> WF bad side: The community there is slow. Development is a snail's pace. And the community itself seems very ingrown. =/ If we stormed in with a ton of energy and started moving development ahead on things, we might get seen as trying to take over, or messing in their sandbox.
<KevinMc> Nel I know less about. I was not overly impressed by what I saw there, but I didn't tinker with it all that much either.
<Kalldrexx> Nel's new website is horrible
<KevinMc> A6 is another option I guess... It's pricer than Torque though, and the netcode is not as strong.
<Kalldrexx> lack of information
<Kalldrexx> not sure why
<Kalldrexx> it used to be much better
<KevinMc> Nel was used to create Saga of Ryzom.
<Mikhail> how much do all these things cost
<Kathera> But NeL engine has a running game to come up with... i dont know if the other tools do
<Mole> i'd suggest that if we're designing a freeware game, then we don't want to use commercial engines..... :)
<KevinMc> Once SoA was released, Nevrax stopped paying so much attention to Nel dev. Didn't need it anymore. ;)
<Kathera> NeL is released under GNU 2.0
<Crevin> I'll be back. BTW, I am hoping to get my friend on this project, he'd make an excellent leader:) He's written 2 books so far. Strategy Game Programming With Directx 9.0 2003, AND Multiplayer Game Programming. He also loves the UO genre, and still plays I believe. Hopefully he'll want to help, let you know soon. /AFK
<Mole> (torque engine is not, i believe. could be wrong)
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<Kalldrexx> I want to add one thing about torque, Last I checked it needed a LOT of work to be able to be used for an MMORPG
<KevinMc> Nel: Free, Torque $100, RealmCrafter $100 (plus need Blitz 3D and Blitz Plus compilers, for another $150), WF free, A6 ~$1000
<Kathera> "Take the Torque Game Engine ($100) for a test drive and experience the award winning netcode, GUI editor, C-like scripting, full C++ source, seamless indoor-outdoor rendering, world editor, and much more."
<KevinMc> Correct, Kall
<Mole> here are our options:
<Mole> - use a commercial product (costs money, so not likely)
<Mole> - use a freeware product
<Mole> - write our own
<KevinMc> Like I said - it was an FPS. ;) It's NOT a ready made solution for any RPG! ;)
<Mikhail> we use free or write our own
<Kathera> 1st and 3rd drop out i think
<Mikhail> no commercial
<KevinMc> Making Planetside 2 would be easier. Making Wish with Torque, harder.
<KevinMc> Crystalspace might be another option.
* Wicked has quit IRC (Quit: Wicked)
<Mikhail> ok i think out of those only 2 meet our criteria
<Mikhail> free
<Mole> Mikhail, give Zackron voice. he has some good points
<KevinMc> OK, so you want a GPL engine
<Mikhail> So its Nel WorldForge or Own
<silmaril> from taking a one-hour look at NeL I'd say the code would be extended significantly or completly replaced for a final product. For a prototype, I think the engine itself would cope without too many changes
<KevinMc> Well, Crystalspace does have an MMO developed in it, too.
<faithless> I don't think anybody wants to do WF. Too long without proper results we can be proud of, and motivation will take a blow. :-P
<Mikhail> I agree with that, and i think using 98 tech, is not good
<Mikhail> so its Nel or Own
<Mikhail> down to 2
<silmaril> I would like some other coders to take a look at it as well
* Mikhail sets mode: +v Zackron
<faithless> What were the advantages/disadvantages of Crystalspace?...
<Kathera> Own i think would take ages to get a prototype
<Mole> look at what, silmaril?
<silmaril> NeL
<Kathera> i have just quickly glanced in, not reviewed code in it
<Mole> duh. right. :)
<Mikhail> ok i think we need to leave of tonight, I have some administrative announcements as well as homework until our next meeting which we will decide on after i make the administrative announcements
<KevinMc> Hmmm. CS has had an MMO made in it. There's a print book documenting the engine. It's open source (GPL). Has a couple dozen non-MMO games made in it. Not too many drawbacks, actually.
<silmaril> imo getting something up with minimal replacements to the engine would be preferrable. starting from scratch would probably mean 6+ months extra
<KevinMc> Agree with Sil. Either Nel, or some other GPL engine, will save hundreds of man hours of work.
<Mikhail> ok
<Mikhail> so we are down to CS or Nel
<Mole> let's stop here.
<Mikhail> ok time for announcements
<Mole> we need to look at each one closely before we just blindly deside
<Mole> *decide
<Kalldrexx> take off moderation if its over
<Mikhail> anyone wishing to be involved on the project team should email their CV as an attachment to apply@projectwish.com or post some info about yourself in the message including talents
<Mikhail> If anyone wants to come up with a comprehensive review of Nel and CS for me to post on the website please email the reviews to webmaster@projectwish.com
<Mikhail> The wish team will have its own forum, where we will post people who have joined the wish team, anyone is welcome to apply we will select based on skills.
<Mikhail> sorry Project Wish team
<Mikhail> we will need story board creaters
<Mikhail> modelers
<Mikhail> concept artists
<Mikhail> we will meet tuesday one week from today
<Mikhail> 8pm cst
<Mikhail> for those that cannot make it, i will log and post, though its long reading
<Mikhail> cst is -6 gmt
<Mikhail> hope to see everyone still active and wanting to contribute
<Mikhail> next meeting will be open to everyone
<Mikhail> much love, i am taking moderation off
<hsae> quick question?
<Mikhail> yes
<hsae> what does CV mean?
<Mikhail> resume
<hsae> ahhh
<hsae> ok
<Mole> resume
<Mikhail> also next weeks meeting will be about the Engine
<Mikhail> We will select from available choices
<silmaril> curriculum vitae
<Crevin> I'll research the engines until then:)
<KevinMc> Hmm. Something to check out. Crystalspace has an open source MMO produced with it, PlaneShift. Check out: http://www.planeshift.it/main_01.html
* hsae has moved onto a higher plane of understanding
* Mikhail sets mode: -m
<silmaril> KevinMc: yea, but they haven't released any source yet :/
<Possum> you learn something everyday
<Mikhail> good meeting everyone
<Mole> thanks.