Race-specific classes Options

[RicoSuave]

Has there been a definitive answer yet on if there will be any race-specific classes? In tabletop D&D for example, only humans could be paladins... though, lately this has changed. Obviously, there will be race-specific special abilities like nightsight (darkvision/whatever), but I was curious about things on a bit bigger scale.

What are all your thoughts on this?

[Maxwell]

I don't think race should be a limiting factor. Yes there should be race-specific abilities, but why not let someone choose there own class at the penalties given. And once they have trained lets say 10 levels in it then the pentalities dissappear.

I don't think there is a class system in this game though. So the same thing goes with skills as well.

[Cobra]

The subject of wich you speak is still a pretty far ways off. Alpha 1 milestone is not putting large focus into gameplay aspects and story line, it's more of a tech-demo. A foundation for the whole world.

I'm glad you're curious and this is being discussed :)

[StaticGrazerr]

I'm not so sure there should be race-specific classes, as there should be race-hindered classes. IE: A Giant is going to have a hard time being a thief because he is a GIANT. Just as well, a gnome is going to have a tough time being a fighter class, because he's a gnome.

I've also heard many many times over that humans can more easily learn a wider variety of skills and can preety much go anywhere; they're human. However, a dwarf might not be suited to being a ranger-type.

I'm saying all of this knowing full and well that there won't be so much classes as there will be a list of skills you can work on. ^,^ It's been a while but I remember a lot of stuff! :O

[Maxwell]

Welcome Back Static. I think the skills should be hard to obtain for certain classes while for other skills it should be easier. For example a giant as a thief would use more skill points or it would take longer to learn to pick pocket.

Each skill point you use it will cost more to get to train the next skill point. Depending on how fast it goes up depends on how hard it would be to obtain. For example the giant would start the pickpocketing skill at 1 but once he is trained that will cost him 10 skill points to get the the next skill point. While a gnome after starting pickpocketing at 1 it only cost him 1 skill point until he gets a new level of pickpocketing. This might not make sence at the moment because I rushed it. So if you have and question, musion or bemusion go ahead and ask. Or tell me why I am wrong.

[GageEndal]

[quote1144270576=StaticGrazerr]
I'm not so sure there should be race-specific classes, as there should be race-hindered classes. IE: A Giant is going to have a hard time being a thief because he is a GIANT. Just as well, a gnome is going to have a tough time being a fighter class, because he's a gnome.

I've also heard many many times over that humans can more easily learn a wider variety of skills and can preety much go anywhere; they're human. However, a dwarf might not be suited to being a ranger-type.

I'm saying all of this knowing full and well that there won't be so much classes as there will be a list of skills you can work on. ^,^ It's been a while but I remember a lot of stuff! :O
[/quote1144270576]

Giant thieves are usualy more of Thugs than pickpockets (unless they are picking a titan's pocket of course). I do kind of agree that dwarves shouldn't be rangers though. I can't see them being much use with a longbow ((chortle)).

But then again, I'm sure if a giant really wants to pick a pixies pocket, he could sure try, and if a Dwarf has the urge to live in the forest and mark tracks, more power to 'em.

[RicoSuave]

I can see Static's point well. It would make sense that once in a while there will be an "outcaste" to a specific racial group (as most gnomes have an affinity toward potions & machines rather than magics and dwarves hate trees). I think the race-hindered idea should be looked at when the time comes. I think it holds merit.


Thanks for all the responses.

[StaticGrazerr]

Awesome, one last thing though, hindered, not prevented.

Just because a giant is a gaint doesn't mean he can't pick a humans pocket.

But that also doesn't mean he'd succed very often. ^,^

[Mole]

I personally think the idea of having some race-specific classes and some race-specific attributes is a good idea. In a fantasy world like we are creating, not every fantasy creature has the same stats and attributes. If they did, then the world would be filled with essentially the same type of characters who would just look different on the outside.

That being said, I think many people will balk at the idea of having race-specific classes. People want to be able to do (almost) anything. This is a fantasy game, so what would be wrong with someone playing an ogre who becomes a fanatical follower of some religion and wants to become a paladin? It could happen!

I think some race-specific classes could be implemented without too much trouble, and could be explained in Lore. For example, maybe ogre tribes each have a shaman, and because of their beliefs, only another ogre can be trained to be an ogre shaman. That could be a race-specific class and can be explained so that people can accept during game play.

It has been the general consensus of PW to try and stay away from â??classesâ?� as implemented in D&D style games. We tend to feel that a character should be more like a person, and should be able to do whatever they want in the game. To carry on Staticâ??s example, a giant should be able to become a thief if the giant wanted. It may not be a very good thief (except maybe in the company of other giants), but it should be able to try.

PW is leaning toward using more of a skill based system rather than a class based system.

As Cobra has said, we are actually a long way off until we even start implementing these ideas. For now, keep the suggestions and the discussion coming. This game is truly being developed based on community suggestions, so what the majority of people seem to want is probably close to the direction we will go.

-Mole

[StaticGrazerr]

It's probley not a very good example, but I was playing Elder Scrolls Oblivian recently, and I liked the way they handed "classes". Basicaly it starts out you're in jail and the emperor busts you out, and run through the dungeon killing stuff and the emperor eventually ends up dying. On your way out the head guard will look at you and say, something relative you what weapon or skill you've been concentrating on. I just a wood elf and was using a bow, so he suggest that I might be an archer, though i had a high snooping ( which you could work on while in the dungeon ) and lock picking. Just because he asked if I was, doesn't mean I was.

I'd like to see some type of title you can give/get to put over yourself. Reguardless of what your major skill is.
I.E.
StaticGrazer The Master Tailor of the West Coast.

But I could actuelly be a Master thief. \^,^/

[Rizen]

In reading through this thread I was actually thinking about how races and classes were dont in the Elder Scrolls games as well, though maybe not in the same way Static was. Regardless, what I wanted to point out a few things that the game effectively does which could be, to one degree or another, implimented here.

Naturally, the different races have different stats, but another thing which is interesting is how each one has a few special abilities, such as water breathing or special magic spells. This can sort of go along with what Mole said, about having some classes be race specific. Since we're still not sure if there will even be set classes, there can still be differences made via race specific abilities

Another thing which is important to note is that in the game, while the races usually lean towards a certain specialization (ie orcs to combat, high elves to magic), your class and skills are not dictated by the race you select. While the bonuses that come from a certain race may incline it towards a certain role, it is certainly not impossible to have any race, with sufficient patience and training, become adept at any type of class.

Lastly, I just wanted to say that I think Static's idea about being able to give your character a certain type of title. This can help people feel as though their character does have a certain class without actually implimenting a true class system.

[RicoSuave]

Static's idea isn't too far off from Ultima Online... but that title was assigned by the client, not the player. I can see pro & cons to this. The most glaring one is titling yourself some obscene phrase. Or giving yourself a title like: RicoSuave, the Paragon Warrior, when you really have no fighting skills to psych-out other players from attacking you.

Personally, I have always liked the idea of a title. It shows a level of fame when someone sees you. It shows where you have spent your time and what you're good at. But I feel it needs to be determined by the programming, not the individual.

On a sidenote, I have been thinking what would be required to get players to stay past the initial 2-3 day period in which many players log off and don't continue MMO games. Rizen brought up the point of an initial quest. Perhaps if this quest granted the player a unique item specifically tailored to their skills (or augment them) it might have players connect to the character a bit more........ but that's a topic for another thread. (I wonder who'll start it up)

[Rizen]

[quote1145567879=RicoSuave]Personally, I have always liked the idea of a title. It shows a level of fame when someone sees you. It shows where you have spent your time and what you're good at. But I feel it needs to be determined by the programming, not the individual.
[/quote1145567879]
A think a compromise between the two ideas--player made and system made titles--can be reached. As mentioned, they both have their benefits and downsides. Primarily, a user made title can be misleading, while one from the system takes away a bit of the player's control.

But what about combining the two? Perhaps it could be done so that a person's actions/skills open up various pre-made class titles without automatically labeling the character. As the player progressed, class titles could as well, suggesting an increase in skill--for example, a character who has a lower combat skill might be a Soldier, but as their combat skill increases they can earn a title such as Warrior or Slayer.

Titles could also be based on the character's actions, such as the types of quests they have completed or monsters they have killed. This way, someone's title would be able to show what kind of player they are. For example, someone who does many quests involving killing someone could eventually earn the title assassin or mercenary. Or, someone who has killed a certain number of dragons can become Dragon Slayer.

Granted, this system would require a bit more effort on the development side, but I think it's something that could work really well. One of the most important things would be to make sure we have a very large variety of classes so that people have a lot to choose from.

[StaticGrazerr]

A self given tital can be missleading. Infact some players might take that to their advantage, like..oh say a thief. Say I was a thief in Marvellis, I'm not exactly going to make my Tital " StaticGrazer the Thief"!!
Then everyone would see me, and stay away, or try to follow me around everywhere I went and wait for me to take something.

I'd also like to agree on certain things that cannot be player made titles.
Profanity for one, ( though I myself use it often )
and titles of nobility or social status. Such as King, Govenor, or Guild Leader. Nobility and social status being limited for only the Top of the top of the chain. Thinking as a thief or an assasin, I would want to discuise myself as best I could to assasinate the highest ranking offical. So there's nook like him/her.

So, I guess I'm for a mixed Title process. Self Given, and appointed. Situational and all.

The Nobility or social status thing was just something I pulled out of muh bum. I'd kind of like to have the ability to impersonate Kings and such. ^,^

[Jerky]

Regarding titles, lets take it to another thread. I think we can find an old thread on the issue and there are a few things that I designed many months back that will make part of this moot. We are still considering a design that includes non-unique names, with people being able to give titles to people, and wanted posters to allow people to mark the thief as a thief. Anyways, if there is interest in discussing it, make a new thread about titles.

[Bobsalot]

One race might naturally be better at something than another, but I don't think a race should ever be bound to certain skills. It just might be harder to learn them. I also don't think there should be any function in game for classes. I think this promotes uniqueness and an even further open mindset.

(For help on deciding what skills to learn to be able to do what one would want to do, guides could be available out of game and other players could advise in game)

An example of races and classes was brought up using giants and thieves. Since I don't think there should be a "thief class" only skills that would be useful to a thief, the giant should be able to choose to become a thief (or rather learn these skills and use them). Although a giant might have a harder time learning some thief skills, I don't think that should apply to all skills that pertain to the thief. Such as:

A giant would find it harder to hide at first because he/she is so large. However, is there anyreason a giant should have a harder time picking locks? What does their size have to do with being skillful at picking locks?

Nor should any race be limited to certain weapons on that factor alone. However, because gnomes are naturally smaller and less strong, they might not be able to lift as heavy weapons as humans or dwarfs AT FIRST.

But any race should be able to learn/use any skill or item (within reason), it's just a matter of practice.

Mages should be able to weild a sword just as a warrior if they train their strength and sword skill.