Hi, I'm new and I got a question. Options

[Alexander]

My honest comparison between the games Trials of Ascension and Project Wish for you MNZ and all who care to read it.

Let us first look at what the developers promise us of the contents of their games:

-Trials of Ascension-
Races: Arrwic, Doppelganger, Dragon, Dwarf, Elf, Gargoyle, Goblin, Gryphon, Human, Minotaur, Orc and Pixie. This is a list that has bin cut shorter for a number of times now but this seems to be the final word on it. If you where to look up the information given out on these creatures you will notice the complete disregard for trying to balance them and the power they proved the player. Especially the dragon who, as is discussed on the official forum, can singly shake a nation’s foundation if fully grown requiring legions of non-dragon players to take down and kill. And who knows, maybe once the game is completed the old races that where once scratched can be reinstated?

Skills: No classes exist in ToA, what your character can do and learn is entirely skill based and skills are improved by using them. There is no experience and there are no levels and literary hundreds of skills available. But more then this is the way skills are used in the game because the skill of your character gets him only halfway, you the player are the other half. This is one of the statements of Shadowpool, the developers of ToA, that all that you can do in the game depends upon both player and character skill, nothing is gained without trial. If you where to make a sword in-game you would not only need the forge and tools and metals and character skill to produce it you would also need to prove your own player skill in a short mini-game on which the quality of your item depends. Having a higher skill as a character makes the game easier for the player, the better the result of the mini-game the better the quality of the item produced. But this is not limited to item production, it is the same for casting spells and combat. No fire and forget combat in this game where you can to swing your sword yourself and aim at your opponent, alto the skill of the character aids you in combat it is still the player that controls the swing of the weapon or the aim of a bow.

Magic: Magic is ToA is personal and vast. Not only can a character create their own unique spells they MUST discover their own spells in order to use magic. The system works so that reagents and resonance together produce magic and the ingenuity of the player shapes the spells a character can cast, that is, if he does not die from the process for magic is deadly not only to its enemies but to its practitioners as well. Grossly mistaken yourself is the development of a spell or casting them in the wrong manner can make them end your life. And as stated above, magic is personal, meaning knowing the right combination of reagents and resonance for one character means not knowing them for all characters as each character’s combinations are unique.

Economy: The economy of ToA is entirely player driven, meaning that there are no NPC where you can sell your X wood for X gold and there are not NPC weapon shops and the like. You want a weapon, shield, potion, etc? Find a player that sells them or make them yourself, there is not other way.

Perma-Death: Finally a game where dead is dead! Still under question is how many times (if any) a character can die before his or she truly remains dead but talk has it that we may be looking at three different world clusters; one where dead is dead, one where you have a limited number of life counters, and one where you have a unlimited number of life counter in other words no perma-death.

Settlements: Entirely player driven and organized settlements. Character can build their own houses and villages and cities if you have enough friends and everything can be destroyed or conquered by war. Siege weaponry will therefore also make their entrance in the game. It’s not just building a house, its building a shop besides it and an inn next to that and a blacksmith next to that and across the street you have others building a temple while others down the street are working on a grand cathedral and at the docks storehouses are being erected and not far from there guild houses of merchants and their villas they can afford. Around all this stands the wall of the city and in its middle stands an immense castle all player build. The laws in these cities are determent by players and enforced by players and perhaps NPC guards. Skills such as interrogation even allow your character to get information from the character that the player won’t tell you. And who needs to play by the law? You can freely run your thief or rogue guild, until you get caught that is!

World: One big immense world and you are free to travel its expanse if you have the tools for it for it is truly vast not to mention filled with danger. You face hunger and thirst, heat and frost, rivers, oceans and mountains block your path. Travel as you will, on foot, wagon, mounted on house or fantastic beast and even dragon, take ocean vessels to reach island chains or take wing and visited lonely mountain peaks. The world is truly yours to explore and nobody holds you back so go where you wish but beware the untamed wildlife of the wilderness.

The flora and fauna of this world are not static mind you, no for they imitate life on earth, each creature has its own life and goes about its own way. Kill that dear and it won’t have children to repopulate the countryside. Yes, you can hunt species and harvest plants into extinction never to return. Just as the metals in the veins of the earth can be exhausted and conquest must be made to dominate its riches. This is truly a world.

For what is a world without weather that actualy acted like weather and influanced the world and its creatures and players. Wind, rain, tempratures and such things all chance from reason to reason from time to time and from season to season.

Religion: Though we see not the gods walking on the earth there is evidence to their existence and influences for they grand their favours to those worthy of them. All that you do in the game affects your influence with the 4 gods that linked to the seasons and magic is granted to the community whose faith is high.

Artefacts: In a game where death is indefinable and your time alive forgotten by all and never seen by the young how then will you make a name for yourself, how will your legend be known? Those who have live their lives to the fullest and have done great things can gain the honour of creation an item of great power once their lives are lost forever more. In debate with Shadowpool you are allowed if they so anointed you to this honour to create your own legacy within a single item of great magic. This item, your legacy is them entered into the world after your death to leave you a permanent imprint of the greatness you have achieved in the game.

And these are just the basics of the game, I suggest you read the FAQ section of their site for more detailed information.

Now let’s look at what I can find on Project Wish but let me be fair and say that I know Wish for only a day and must admit it is difficult to find much information on the game. But lets look at what I can find.

-Project Wish-
What must first be understood of Project Wish is that it is different from Wish the game that was cancelled and thus never saw fruitation to the frustration of the people who after its fall started Project Wish in the hope to keep the dream alive that the Ultimate MMORPG can be build.

It is in their interest to copy many of the aspects of what Wish was to become and to add more to it, or so it seems in my opinion. From the forum of Project Wish I learned very little indeed alto their FAQ shed light on many of my questions which made it possible to write this part so far.

They say in the FAQ that even its development team has decided on very few things and so it still leaves to wonder what they are actually doing with their time. To me it seems they still are not sure which direction to take with their game and what exactly to build.

What is not known to me with perfect clarity is the date of birth of this Project Wish, Jan 2005 around the time Wish the game got cancelled. I’ve added this information to make the comparison of experience this project as a whole has with Trials of Ascension whose roots go as least as far back as April 2002 at the very least, which are 3 years of community and development experience more then Project Wish.

Little more then this can be learn from the Project Wish FAQ and its Forum in such a short time so let us examine then another site connected with the original Wish game. For information on this game I found the Wish Vault at http://wishvault.ign.com/

From this I have learned the following:

Wish™ is often being referred to as the first Ultra MMORPG, hinting at the unique size of the game's world. Not only will the game world be completely seamless, including vast underground dungeon areas, it will also run on one single server cluster. No separate shards or servers, but possibly tens of thousands of players on one enormous world called Ganedan. This world itself will contain seamless regions, each one attributed to one specific race in the game.

So it will be a big, seamless world with lots and lots of players, notably far more then any game seen so far? To me it seems ToA does the same, also one big place where many people play together and against one another alto they have not given out anything on the number of these players so my guess will be that this number for ToA will be determent by the games success and expanded to keep up with the number of players.

Now, as to what Live Content is. Live Content is a content system where quests are scripted, sculpted, and tailored ahead of time through a GM toolset, and then placed throughout the world for the player base to find and experience. "Live Content" is on a macro level, consumable content placed throughout the world to keep large portions of people entertained at a time. Town invasions, attacks, hunts, murders, mystery, investigations, intrigue. Events such as this can take minutes for the GM's to queue up, but can last weeks, possibly even months to complete! And the world will never be the same once you complete the quest...or fail!

So the world will chance according to the achievements and failures of its players and we will see GM’s working on new quests to keep the game world flowing. Alto I have not yet noted this above in the ToA section Shadowpool will also send its GM’s to work behind the scenes in order to provide a storyline that will keep the game flowing.

Cyclopes
Dragonkin
Dwarves
Elves
Gnomes
Humans
Imps

Hmm, only 7 races and I don’t see true dragon kind amongst them unless I misjudge. And Imps that escaped slavery from another realm? *sigh* But that is unfair to write as this is personal flavour. Still I see only races of roughly a single size, nothing really big and nothing really small, sadly.

Skills
Contrary to most current-day mmorpg's, Wish™ makes use of a highly customizable skill system, which will allow you to develop your character in precisely the way you want it to. Instead of following pre-set paths by your pre-chosen "class", to get better at something in Wish, you simply do what it is you wish to raise! Much more logical and much more freedom. This way, your character advances as how you like to play the game, and not how someone has already pre-determined your charater to adavnce. Plus, you dont have to wait to the end of killing a monster to get XP. You want to raise healing? Then heal. You want to raise swords skill? Then successfully hit a monster with a sword. Logical!

Nice but no different from ToA except in the way skills are used. In this I can find more information on the way ToA goes about it then Wish, sadly there is a gap of information for Wish.

Taming
Pets in Ganedan aren’t like pets from other MMOG’s. Pets will actually grow in strength you’re your character! Pets also have a variety of roles to play in the game. They are not only limited to mounts. They will have one of five basic roles. Mount, beast of burden, war animal, resources (farm animals), and entertainment.

Seems a little different then ToA where in ToA you are able to ride any creature you can tame with your character, which is every other creature in the game! From this short bit of info I am to conclude that Wish has preset animals and beast for preset categories, in other words, no freedom but spoon-fed choices.

Rogues
Finally a game that is trying to make rogues...well, rogues. Skills like pick pocketing, lockpicking, and sneaking will finally be emphasized for this style of play and characters. Very few MMORPGs have made truly entertaining thieves or rogues. Wish endeavors to change this. Players who work at rogue skills have plenty of NPC targets around the world to play their underhanded trades upon. But beware! If you are caught, you will become a fugitive. Other players, or Bounty Hunters, are able to hunt down rogues through our bounty hunting system. This is yet another area where PvP is present in Wish. That said, there is much more to rogues than this basic outline. Please, check back soon for a more complete picture.

Why this needs to be added is unknown to me as their open skill system already demonstrated that you are free to advance as you please without class restrictions or preset patch. It is nice to know however that they have made the effort to allow rogue skills in the game and allow you the freedom to steal from others.

PvP
First and foremost, Wish™will be a PvE centric game. But that doesn’t mean there wont be many opportunites to participate in PvP in Ganedan. Here are some of the opportunities people will have to explore PvP in Ganedan:
• Arenas
• Duels
• Rogues
• PvP cities
• Surgical PvP
• The PvP area

PvE??? Blasfemie!!! There seem to be a PvP area which means not complete freedom! Terrible in my opinion where as ToA is entirely and completely PvP. (Well, ok apart for one place in the world, you could say ToA is PvP with one No-PvP area.)

PnC
Wish™ uses a Point and Click (PnC) method of character control, which means that you move your character by clicking on the ground where you want to end up. This control method is being used in combination with a powerful pathfinding engine and has been chosen mainly for its technical advantages. Graphically speaking, Wish utilizes the Gamebryo engine developed by NDL to produce excellent overall visuals. It also makes use of IDV's SpeedTreeRT software, which was also (partly) used by Mythic for Dark Age of Camelot, to create the exceptionally realistic vegetation and trees.

In other words you have no actual freedom and must abide to where your character can travel with a mouse click instead of choosing your own path and method of travel in a shooter game fashion where you move your sight with the mouse and walk with the cursor keys, but not just walk as you can jump, strafe, crawl, climb, etc as you can in ToA.

What I find tragic is their FAQ section that doesn’t work. Truly tragic for I would have wanted to read most of the secrets about this game it could have revealed. And so its inner workings will forever be a mystery to me unless other sources of information are provided.

With only my poor sources this is all I can amount to in a comparison of ToA and Wish/Project Wish. So in the end I admit it is an unfair comparison but the only one I can make on my own with the little information I have.

My conclusion is then this that ToA outshines in every approach over Wish/Project Wish. ToA gives more freedom to the player and offers more options the Wish/Project Wish.


Project Wish, dear members who seek to create the Ultimate MMORPG, all I can say is that you still have a lot of work ahead of you though that would be stating the obvious. If it is of interest for you all I would suggest you first decide upon what an Ultimate MMORPG must encompass before you start to actually do anything else.

To offer you my vision of what the Ultimate MMOPRG shut encompass I will state you this: It is the Imitation of Fantastic Life. With this I mean that only a copy of earthly life in a fantasy setting can become the Ultimate MMOPRG and only one vision of the idea at that. Freedom in my opinion is a greater factor by far then player numbers for a game to be labelled Ultimate.


You speak truth Cobra, for how am I to truly understand Wish if I've never played it? I cannot but look at remnant information of it left on the web and piece together my own version of it, nothing more. But the same I could tell you, what can you understand of ToA until you have read every last text of the information available on ToA official site, read of its features and read its FAQ and then you may give me your judgement and comparison between the two.

But let truth be told and made evident that this is no competition between games for each game is a world on its own at it is up to the players to give their opinions about these games.

But Cobra know one thing clearly that I do understand what it is like to long from the Ultimate MMORPG as I have for many long years. I have pondered upon its ideal many years though I claim no attempt to realise it, I am a player not a developer and I have not the skills to build it only to dream it and dreams often go beyond what mare tools allow you the developer to build. But is not the dreams of the player that are more so limitless then the dreams of the developer?

[Alexander]

I think many of us are like Alexander, as in we have very strong opinions as to what a MMORPG should be, and we can all agree that MMORPGs of late have taken the direction of commercialization over playability and vision.

So to carry on with more concision than my last post, what are the preferential traits, features and concepts PW should try to embody, does ToA embody these traits, and if it does, how? If PW was to include these things how possibly could it improve on them? Are there possibly mistakes or successes ToA has had that we could avoid or learn from?

LOL well the one thing Shadowpool (ToA) has trouble with (not sure if that’s the correct word though, trouble) is finding funding to complete their game. But this is not unlike any other game that wants to make it in our world.

Thank you John for piercing the heart of the matter for you read my posts true, commercialization seem to prevail over genuine game-play and vision and not just in MMORPG's, in RPG's this event is also very clear as well as in RTS games sadly.

What I find so fascinating about ToA and what Project Wish still seems to be missing is freedom, but not just freedom, complete freedom in game-play. ToA imitates a completely living and ever moving world with weather, regenerating wild and plant-life, open PvP everywhere, and the utter lack of concern for balance in its playable races.

I use harsh words because well... I'm just harsh heh-heh but also to wake people and scare them out of the little box they live in and don't see, often enough people do not see the limitation they place on themselves or let others place on themselves. I say break free, dream, create against all odds! You want Ultimate? Try it on then, try and deserve it! I'm not going to stop you, if anything I'll encourage you but I'm not going to cuddle you to the top.

[echorev]

Well that was a pretty interesting read Alexander, thanks for putting it up.

To be bluntly honest with you, I would never touch ToA simply because it IS trying to imitate real life through a fantasy game. I have enough excitement in the life I actually live, that I wouldn't want to live another one through a computer screen. I ENJOY a game with some limitations, that tells me what I can or can't do and then just let's me enjoy killing a few monsters, or exploring an open country, rather than trying to torture a rogue for information.

Either way, it is very very easy to list ideas, anyone can do it, I think the difference is of course, product. I agree completely with John, there is aboslutely no competition, just two groups of people trying to realize their dreams with the skills they have. To this effect I would urge you, that instead of consigning yourself to become a player, if you truly have ideas and wish to help, you put aside 20 minutes a day to learn to compose, or draw, or program. You seem to like writing, and creative writing for world concept is also a prized skill in game development. There are many ways to actually get involved in the design process, and that is the only way you will really see your own vision through.

Thanks again for putting that up. I can see now some of the differences between the two games, and admit I prefer what PW is trying to accomplish rather than ToA.

[glibdud]

ToA imitates a completely living and ever moving world with weather, regenerating wild and plant-life, open PvP everywhere, and the utter lack of concern for balance in its playable races.

I'd be interested to see how these two goals work together. My cynicism toward the gaming masses says they won't.

It's all well and good to talk about Complete Freedom in games, but the only reason freedom works at all in real life is because there are serious lasting consequences and no do-overs.

[Alexander]

Meh, I've already even tried do something with computers in school and out of lack of interest and lack of interest I left it. I'm no good with it as it doesn't really spark my interest, I love to design things with the mind but when it comes to learning endless coding and the writing of it I fall short.

But perhaps this creative writing for world concept is something for me, can I find more info on this somewhere on the site? I'd love to help but don't know if I can be of much use.

I'd be interested to see how these two goals work together. My cynicism toward the gaming masses says they won't.

It's all well and good to talk about Complete Freedom in games, but the only reason freedom works at all in real life is because there are serious lasting consequences and no do-overs.

Perma-death?

[glibdud]

Perma-death?

So... once a player's character dies, he's never allowed to make another character again?

Permadeath is a setback, but not a lasting consequence.

[Alexander]

So how do I sign up for this world consept thingy?

I found some information on it and a connected name: Pandra - (World Concept Lead)

...Isn't that the one I pissed off early in this topic? Drat! Oh well..

Soooo. How does this go? What do you need or what do I need to do?

So... once a player's character dies, he's never allowed to make another character again?

Permadeath is a setback, but not a lasting consequence.

...not a lasting consequence? Your dead! How much more long lasting can you get? For the player that means you'll never again see that character, all experience with him is gone as dust in the wind, all titles you've gained are lost as are all the friends and alliances you've made.

You have to start over from ground bottom up!

[MNZ]

It's harsh alright, but it's worth it if you want my word. And why not act imediately?

Devs, here's a good idea: Have a section of the site called perhaps "The Dream", cut it down into little peices of characters, combat, etc and populate each with the CURRENT idea of what is to be in the game. For example the "no hit points" idea under character, etc. You could also have little boxes that are to be checkmarked once so-and-so is implemented successfully.

This is nothing but really cleaning up the ideas section of the forums into whats-in and whats-out. "The Dream" page will be changed often of course depending on current 'negotiations'. It'll serve as an extensive outline to where PW is going.

What about it?

[glibdud]

...not a lasting consequence? Your dead! How much more long lasting can you get? For the player that means you'll never again see that character, all experience with him is gone as dust in the wind, all titles you've gained are lost as are all the friends and alliances you've made.

You have to start over from ground bottom up!

If you make the assumption that all of your players are hardcore RPers, that might work to a certain extent.

To a lot of gamers, though, that's not much of a deterrent. They can do whatever they want to... damn the consequences. If they get caught, they can always start over.

I just see an awful lot of grief play happening in such a system.

It's harsh alright, but it's worth it if you want my word. And why not act imediately?

Devs, here's a good idea: Have a section of the site called perhaps "The Dream", cut it down into little peices of characters, combat, etc and populate each with the CURRENT idea of what is to be in the game. For example the "no hit points" idea under character, etc. You could also have little boxes that are to be checkmarked once so-and-so is implemented successfully.

This is nothing but really cleaning up the ideas section of the forums into whats-in and whats-out. "The Dream" page will be changed often of course depending on current 'negotiations'. It'll serve as an extensive outline to where PW is going.

What about it?

Check the "Project Wish Requirements" forum. There are some lists there sort of like you describe. Although it's a fairly rough first pass, so some of them contradict each other.

[Alexander]

If you make the assumption that all of your players are hardcore RPers, that might work to a certain extent.

To a lot of gamers, though, that's not much of a deterrent. They can do whatever they want to... damn the consequences. If they get caught, they can always start over.

I just see an awful lot of grief play happening in such a system.

Yup.

[echorev]

Alexander if you probably should send her a PM telling you are interested. I know a few members have joined lately and am not sure where she stands on recruitment, but she's a very nice person and pleasant to talk to

You mentioned servers with unlimited lives before too ? Permenant death wouldn't be much of a police over there would it ?

[MNZ]

Check the "Project Wish Requirements" forum. There are some lists there sort of like you describe. Although it's a fairly rough first pass, so some of them contradict each other.

Not very good, there needs to be a Master List. Someone should have already thought of that before. It's essentially a feature list.

[Alexander]

Alexander if you probably should send her a PM telling you are interested. I know a few members have joined lately and am not sure where she stands on recruitment, but she's a very nice person and pleasant to talk to

You mentioned servers with unlimited lives before too ? Permenant death wouldn't be much of a police over there would it ?

Duh

And I guess thats the best course of action... I hope she doesn't hate me, but then again she's a friend of Jushpurple so I guess she's ok.

[echorev]

I feel bad spamming this thread when our posts are within minutes of each other... how bout hop on irc and we can talk more ?

http://www.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=6874

[Alexander]

I'm paranoid and don't trust IRC! *shuns away in darkness*

[glibdud]

Not very good, there needs to be a Master List. Someone should have already thought of that before. It's essentially a feature list.

http://www.projectwish.com/index.php?showtopic=2462

I had trouble navigating the forums for a while when I first started checking things out, too. Things aren't always arranged intuitively.

[MNZ]

I'm paranoid and don't trust IRC! *shuns away in darkness*

huh? Why wouldn't you trust IRC? Ole Internet relay chat is one of the most trustable of all forms of internet communication.

[Alexander]

huh? Why wouldn't you trust IRC? Ole Internet relay chat is one of the most trustable of all forms of internet communication.

Yes but as I said, I'm Paranoid.

[joshpurple]

Just a note, I knew one of the Dev's working for ToA, -that's how I found ToA. He's around my age, *blush* ~ 42 years old or so, -he's done 3D work for over a decade, I knew him in school (we went to the same Academy) & he's a very talented, very cool guy. We are good friends. He asked me to go to ToA and check it out. He would keep in touch with me, and he did let me know when he left ToA & why he did.

So, from that POV, ToA and ProjectWish, in my opinion, are very different.

ToA handle hiring differently.
ToA handled doing graphics differently.
ToA did concept work differently.
ToA had a different pipeline for content.
ToA is using a different game engine.
ToA's concept is very different*
ToA does religion differently.
ToA was not trying to create the same type of 'open' gaming community.
ToA never offered anything like DWARF to the players.
ToA handled how Devs did work differently.
ToA handled how Devs and players could interact very differently.
.
.
.
The list goes on. It's hard to describe how MUCH work goes into an online game, and I'm sure everyone appreciates that, <-- with that amount of work, it's hard to imagine how ToA and PW could be the same -even if they TRIED to do things exactly the same, the differences would be huge.

And, I'm not saying anything bad about ToA, I admire Brax & all of the Devs at ToA. More power to 'em .
But, PW and ToA are VERY different.

Alexander, have you worked with DWARF yet?

DWARF is an Outstanding bit of work, and it offers something to the players -for FREE- (my BIG Thanks to the programmers and EVERYONE at PW for creating DWARF, -you guys ROCK! ), it's Huge that a community got together and created DWARF. If anything, it COST people who were volunteering their time to create DWARF, -and that shows a BIG LOVE for the game. Before you 'tear down' PW, or say that it is exactly the same, try using DWARF maybe?

[Alexander]

I haven't tried it, its on my to do list.