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Posted by: Pandra Oct 18 2006, 12:52 PM

On the WoW forum for the guild affiliation I'm part of on Kirin Tor server someone posted a link to a story, and so far the discussion going on is mostly mature.

Here's the link to the story
http://soulkerfuffle.blogspot.com/2006/10/view-from-top.html

Here's the link to coalition discussion
http://tragicallybeautiful.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12960#12960

Since PW is still in the early stages I just wanted to I guess make people aware of one of the biggest flaws all current MMORPG's have. That's the fact that they're a pretty much a major time sink that leaves burned out and/or ex-players with a bitter taste in their mouth. I don't think I know anyone who's quit a MMORPG that's said "That was a great game. I wish I still the time/means/whatever to play it." Most gamers walk away saying something more like "Oh my god, I'm so stupid to have played that, why did I let it eat up so much of my life?"

Posted by: GageEndal Oct 18 2006, 01:03 PM

I really liked playing Star Wars Galaxies and Dungeons and Dragons Online. I would play both of them again if I could, but because of financial means I just can't right now. I thought both of them had strong redeeming qualaties (like the bugs I found/exploited for exp and money) and were full of very strong role players and power players alike.







World of Warcrap sucks though... and I didn't even have to download the free trial to figure that little gem out.

Posted by: Matlush Oct 18 2006, 02:10 PM

MMORPGs are addictive, for sure. Yet while playing the game to kill mobs and have wealth - bad. Better to try roleplaying or something... anyway, games are for fun, but as i said, MMORPGs are addictive, and they never end. Another thing why there should be permadeath (to heal Mat's addiction )

Posted by: Bingo Oct 18 2006, 04:36 PM

I'm surprised that WoW is as popular as it is... once you get past the "huge world" and the nice graphics/sound etceteras, you find yourself with little more than:

1) kill monsters your level + 2
2) gain XP, better weapons to make killing monsters easier
3) go back to 1 until level 60.

Ok, there's a bit more to it than that, but that's the long and the short of it...

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 18 2006, 08:40 PM

I think I'm the only here who harbors no ill feelings towards World of Warcraft. The level 60 raid game is incredibly solid. There's a certain feeling of comaradre involved in taking down a massive raid boss while yelling commands over voice chat. The only reason I don't play anymore is because I haven't the time to sit through a 3-4 hour dungeon crawl like I did in the summer.

Posted by: GageEndal Oct 18 2006, 10:22 PM

Get the blasphemer!

Posted by: Jerky Oct 18 2006, 10:29 PM

There is something to be learned from WoW, and I defend it even though I don't like it. We all have to pay homage to it because the MMO industry wouldn't be what it is without it.

Some things I think we can learn are that the newbie levels, tutorials, GUI and those things that you start out with are very important. The first few minutes spent in any MMO are crucial. I think if WoW sucked at those areas, it would not be what it is. I think the word is "accessible." Even females who haven't ever played games, let alone MMO's now play WoW. They did a fantastic job refinining their systems to the point that it is an art.

Other than that, refinement was also taken to the next level with WoW. I think it can be agreed that they didn't bring anything new to the table, but they did bring everything else in such a good way as to make it incredibly addicting. I think we ALL could pick it apart, and I think that is why we are here. You do, however, have to give credit where credit is due. Blizzard did us all a favor and brought life back to a tepid industry. We all know Wish could have done some great things, but I know that that may have only been in a niche market. I am fine in a niche market, as long as it has a lesser percentage of the griefing powergamers, etc.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents regarding WoW.

Posted by: Maxwell Oct 19 2006, 10:58 AM

Well said Jerky. Tutorials and making it feel like immersion in the beginning is where it is at. It helps people learn the new style of playing, of the new game. It helps people understand the controls instead of running around asking how to talk, or what button make does this. I think their is an actual thread regarding this I am not sure though I will have to check.

I am not picking sides on the WOW thing, personally because I have never played it. I also personally think because it is such a big game you have more people complaining about it then you would a smaller game. For example, do you here people complaining about McDonalds more or your local restaurant. McDonalds because more people in the world go to McDonalds than you your local restaurant. This probably doesn't even belong in here and I probably don't know what I am talking about but thats my, as everyone has been saying, 2 cents.

Posted by: Pandra Oct 19 2006, 03:26 PM

I guess I should have expect that to turn into WoW hate/defend thread since it's unfortunate the original blog and my other groups discussion started there. But the point was the time issue. Yes, WoW has a very pretty interface and is easy to pick up.

Radio Storm said "The only reason I don't play anymore is because I haven't the time to sit through a 3-4 hour dungeon crawl like I did in the summer."

Ok seriously, who among us has 3-4 hours to give to what amounts to one tiny part of a much bigger game? An hour, two, sure. But I have kids, a job, a zoo, a husband, and other stuff vieing for my attention. Even Blizzard realizes alot of their instances are to demanding time wise for the average gamer. That's why BC is being released with the smaller man instances and all that associated jazz.

I don't know if you guys are even considering the instance approach to some game content, but I've know quest lines that can eat up a ridiculous amount of time to complete too.

I think the time it takes to accomplish something, weather a quest, a dungeon crawl or learning a trade needs some serious consideration. Unless your targeting the typical hard core gamer (read teenage, unemployed, living off someone else, ect.). Which, truefully, are not the kind of slackers who I'd want to associate with in real life, why would I want to pay to play with them? If you make a game that requires that kind of time commentment, than then you're most likely going to attract the kind of player that most of us are wanting to get away from.

I'm not saying it has to be easy or quick. Just there need to be well planned break points where people can go"This is good. I got this far and I can finish the rest tomorrow."

You don't have that in WoW. In WoW you have to commit that large block of time in one setting to get through an instance or you're a bad player for having a life outside the game, bad raider for dropping out half way through, bad gamer for not sticking through till the end. That's is largely Blizzard's fault for the way they've set up their instances.

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 19 2006, 05:14 PM

While I agree that a four hour dungeon crawl would be obtuse in a game like Wish, I don't think there is any intrinsic flaw in the mechanic. A lot of people enjoy the personal investment involved in the raid game. Given, such individuals mostly belong to the high school and college crowd, but they are largely the target demographic for MMOs anyways. They are abundant with the prerequisite disposable income and time.

What it basically comes down to is whether you enjoy raiding or not. If you do, you'll like World of Warcraft. If you don't, you won't. In the same regard, people who dislike roleplaying will probably dislike Wish. It's all a matter of opinion.

Posted by: ppClarity Oct 20 2006, 07:58 AM

Even RP situations can cost you time. There are certain areas in Avlis that I don't travel thru unless I know I've got a block of free time lest I get stuck in an RP trap.

Posted by: Hankellin Oct 21 2006, 10:28 PM

I am playing WoW right now. I find it difficult to help some of my guild teammates out due to length of time needed as well.

There is no real way I can sit down to play 3-4 hours straight through a crawl.. I have had to pass on some quests "needed" for a long time due to my schedule. I would have maybe an hour or two to play at a time and the Object of the crawl would be 3 hours away....

I would like to be able to "make camp; barricade the door" and start where I left off at a later time.

Posted by: Jerky Oct 21 2006, 11:05 PM

That seems to be one of the bad effects of instancing. Time sinks for the sake of wasting time are really terrible, if you ask me. I realize the goal in those games is to keep paying customers, but there are some lines I do not want to cross.

Shooting from the hip here, I remember times in UO when I was in a difficult area working on a quest and needed to go. I would hide myself and log out. When I logged back in, I was still hidden. Its not a perfect way to not lose progress, but its better than instancing, which has no way of doing it whatsoever. Players could arrange to log in at the same time to start back up where they left off if it was a group.

Posted by: Pandra Oct 22 2006, 07:09 PM

So you'd consider designing area's of rougher, more intense combat with hidding nitches so people could leave if they needed too and not have to do the whole run from scratch again later? That would be highly appriciated, thought thinking about it now I'm sure there will be some way for people who are criminally minded to find away to exploite that though

I realize the instances where made as a way to stop the spawn camping that was occuring in other games and could quickly ruin a quest line. But I still feel Blizzard went way over board in the realm of ridiculous with some of their instances.

There has to be a better way to handle the time sink issue, I just can't think of anything at the moment.

Though, one of WoW's more notorius instances and one of my favorites is Scarlet monistery. It's broken up into sections and requires the right keys to get through. While some of the instances alone still border on the rediculously long it's not nearly as bad as it would be if you had to do the interthing from the graveyard to the library, then the other two doors in one shot.

Would it be possible to have an area where one would need to recover the nessissary keys to advance further, and have the keys coded so the mobs in the area recognised the player as a non-threat and let them progress unattacked? Not like perminantly.

Ok let's say I'm working my way up through a mad mages tower. As I go up the tower levels I procede through several rooms, having to obtain the keys to each room as I progress. Then I have to log out to go to work or something. When I log back in I have the key for the next door in my inventory and the mobs react to me as one of their own unless I attack them. Unlocking the door and crossing through uses up my key so if I back track later the mobs will recognise me as an invador. But I have that brief period of time after logging in to get situated, reaquant myself with the task I was on and get ready to move on.

edited to add that rogues might not need keys to get through locked doors but then they wouldn't be afforded the same recognition if they logged out and back in in a bad spot.

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 22 2006, 07:40 PM

Eh, World of Warcraft basically does that. Every time you defeat a boss, the raid instance saves itself. The next time you enter the instance everything up until the last boss you have defeated will not respawn. The only limitation is that raid instances are on 3-7 day reset clocks, meaning that regardless of your progress after a certain number of days the instance will refresh itself.

Most raids engage in 3-4 hour bouts of raiding because it's more efficient. I've done 20 man instances over the course of 3 days with my guild when we were feeling more leisurely and it's worked out fine.

Posted by: Pandra Oct 22 2006, 07:58 PM

Are you sure about that? Because I was in SFK the other day helping my kids and we had to pause for dinner. So we left our characters logged in because logging would have removed us from the instance and reset it, from what I've seen thus far. We came back to check and make out characters jump so we didn't time out. By the time we got done with dinner and got back most everything in the lower court yard had respawned. I didn't go back into Odo's tower to check on the mobs in there. We just hurried along to last tower before the guards started respawning on us.

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 22 2006, 08:46 PM

I was referring to the raid instances, like Molten Core, that constitute the majority of the endgame content. Regular instances such as SFK don't save progress because, at most, they take 2-3 hours to beat. Even then, there are numerous shortcuts that allow you to bypass instance content, such as the "backdoor" keys for Gnomeregan, Stratholme and Maraudon.

After I got the hang of dungeon crawling I could clear endgame 5-mans like Upper Blackrock Spire in around 2 hours. Heck, before I quit I was on the verge of completing Stratholme in under 45 minutes.

Posted by: Pandra Oct 23 2006, 06:11 AM

ok 2-3 hours is still 1-2 hours too long for many people. My play time doesn't magically increase because it's a regular instance as opposed to an endgame instance. I also don't have time to run the same instance so many times that I learn all the patterns and what not to get my run time down under an hour. If I had that much play time I wouldn't be fretting about the time thing to begin with.

I know people keep saying the target demograhic for gaming is the teen to collage crowd who have the time and money, though for the life of me I can't remember a college student ever saying "I have so much money, wha-hoo!" Maybe colleges around here are different. Most of the students around here are trying to figure out how to scrap up an extras $10 for the gas tank to get home to borrow money from mom and dad.

Most of the people I've played with on line were in the upper 20s-40 age bracket, had kids, jobs, sometimes two jobs and had that surplus income that college kids allegedly have. They've even admitted to lieing about their age on-line because they were under the impression that only "kids" played and they didn't want people knowing they were old farts. How crazy is that? You impose a false sterotype and people lie to meet it so they don't seem like freaks.

Anyway, break points or being able to do something similar to what Jerky was doing in UO would be greatly beneficial to the gamers with limited play time.

Honestly now I'm curious as the age of the average game developer that stays for the long haul as opposed to the age of the fair weather game dev who sticks around for a month or two. Who makes more money, is more sucessful. If that same logic were applied to the customer base, what would the age bracket of the loyal player who'd be more likely to invest more money into a game be? One player buying one account and playing for 6 months = $$ but how much $$ would a player buying multiple accounts and playering for a year plus net you?

Example, my husband added another WoW account this weekend because he didn't have enough character slots on his chosen server bringing our grand total up to five accounts. I'm thinking Blizzard owes me a Christmas card for that.

Posted by: Jerky Oct 23 2006, 10:46 AM

5 accounts? You guys have a problem I know thats not uncommon, but is that scarry to anyone else?

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 23 2006, 09:50 PM

A little.

Pandra, I can't relent that 2-3 consecutive hours is too long to play an online game. Given how downright optional dungeon crawls are between 1-59, and the fact that the average theatrical movie consumes no more time, I don't really see the problem.

On the same note, World of Warcraft is relatively affordable all things considered. High school students usually have their parents pay for it, and college students (such as myself) only need work an additional couple hours at a part-time job or simply avoid spending the money on beer or junk food. Even my older brother, who pays for his own residence, tuition and food, could afford a subscription. 10 dollars a month is nothing.

On the flipside, given that the intent of Wish seems to be to appeal to the older, more casual crowd, I doubt it would be wise to extend any of our dungeons beyond the 1-1.5 hour barrier. It'd simply be contradictory to the demands of our playerbase. We might even want to take the route of microdungeons that demand less than an hour of a player's time, the your prospect of multiple tiered dungeons seems promising as well.

Posted by: Pandra Oct 24 2006, 09:11 AM

Moveies last 2-3 hours now? The last time we went to a movie (Over the Hedge) I think it lastest just under an hour and 45.... Dear lord I have my kids attention span >.< *cries*

5 accounts = my account, my son's account, my daughter's account and 2 accounts for my husband. I laugh your concept of college kids having surplus money. No one throws around surplus money like an obessessed parent.

But yah, I seem to find my way into a group of working parents in most games simply because we don't have that time and thus we're pretty much forced to skip stuff ie. we're missing out on part of the fun. That sort of thing builds alot of resentment.

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 24 2006, 01:56 PM

Theatrical movies peak 2-2.5 hours fairly often taking into account trailers and advertisements. Kids movies, not so much, because kids have crappy attention spans. But I was stuck in the theater for almost 3 hours when I saw Miami Vice and Snakes on a Plane recently. I won't even get into the bladder endurance test that was the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Anyhow, I can understand how World of Warcraft can come off as a bit exclusive. Their target demographic, while robust in size, is a tad specific in tastes. Casual players, such as the busy parent (you) or the comitted academic (me) tend to get weeded out.

Regardless, I think there's a lot of things to learn from World of Warcraft that we shouldn't ignore on account of residual resentment.

Posted by: Pandra Oct 24 2006, 04:11 PM

I woun't deny that there things to be learned from WoW. I mean it's popular for a reason and Blizzard is making fat bucks from it. But there is always room for improvement. I'm not sure why the gaming industry so often sets it's target demographic for the teenage-college age crowd when there's a much stabler demographic with a deeper pockets just above them.

I know several people who've said they'd be willing to pay more a month for a game if it provied them with better customer service and in game GM support, live content.. ect. All that stuff that teens want and expect to be free 'cause their 'paying' $13.95 a month for the game already... or whatever. But you'd have to tailor your game to appeal to that demograhic. You might have a smaller customer base as a result, but Jerky's already said he doesn't mind being a nitch game.

Posted by: Radiostorm Oct 24 2006, 09:52 PM

I agree that the post-college demographic is lot more stable. However, even with the giant expansion of the video game audience in the past few years older gamers are still comparatively few and far between. They aren't a demographic a large company can really bank on.

In that regard, I think catering to a niche demographic is a smart move for Project Wish. We need stability and lack the resources to compete in the raid game arena, currently dominated by World of Warcraft.

Posted by: Dwilf Oct 30 2006, 04:36 PM

Given that we are to have one large, seamless world where any one (major)quest can only be done once, thus players' actions count. I don't see raids and instances having a place here. Two groups can't both kill Sinister Bob and his Grizzly Goblins in their own private instances and we still claim to have a SINGLE dynamic, impactable world.

There should be no question about PW being a niche game. RP orientated live content, that was what made Wish stand out from the more succesful MMOs.

Posted by: zicyo Apr 12 2007, 04:15 PM

I just keep preaching for the choir here but...I recently read an article on Gamasutra you probably already read (Rethink the MMO, Neil Sorens, http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070326/sorens_01.shtml) and it discuss some of the stuff this thread mentions and found in other threads in the forum.

I am a bit curious on the focus of the project right know, I glanced through Pandras blog the other day and it got me a little worried about not putting in lots of resource to make lore and such. Or has I misinterpreted the situation? Perhaps there are more than meet the eye?

Like Sorens write in the article these types of games often focus on numbercrunching, leveling and looting. Perhaps its because there often are engineers or people whos cup of tea are stats and numbers that have the ability to really create a game of this type? I dont know, but I really agree with Sorens when he writes "It is much easier to balance a fun but unbalanced game" than the other way around.

And most of our games settings resides on inspiration from good stories written by Tolkien, Clarke and Asimov (and more).

I think that if Project Wish delivers a world with freedom to for example chop down trees (as Mole write in the req) and it is done beautifully with a zillion shader effects, dreamers like I would pay an embarrassingly high monthly fee just to be able to play as "Common Woodcutter" day out and day in. And I wont care a second about what level I am or if it is the "Axe of Extreme Cutting 2000" I have in my hands. I just want to see the wood give way and hear the crack from the breaking log with the crescendo of leafs exploding to the ground. And of course some birds escaping from their newly destroyed home (Ill gladly take evil points for evicting harmless creatures if thats required). Im that easy to satisy.

And I reckon Im not the only fool out there, or am I?

Just some thoughts on your splendid work!

Posted by: Pandra Apr 12 2007, 09:56 PM

The problem is that previous story team leads didn't feel the need for a large team, I guess because they didn't fully understand how much writting acctually has to be done. When I joined there were five people on the team and everyone was like "that's plenty." Now I have done item, room, and character discriptions for MUDs before but I've never tackled anything like PW. So when I was told, this is enough, we don't have much to do right now, I belived my team lead....

Then I started digging around and found out how much more a MMORPG needs in terms of lore, story, research, discriptions for the other artists to work off of... so much in fact that it seems liek a really impossible thing for five people to pull off, exspecially when all the work is from volunteer hobbiests, most of whom have jobs, school and lives. That's an awful lot to expect someone to commite the same amount of time to a hobby that they would a job. While I expect the quality of what we produce to be better as people are doing what they like, I don't expect to ever see week deadlines when most people on the team can only spend 1-2 hours a day working on the project. In my eyes the only real way to see significant progress is going to be opening up the story team and getting more writters.

That's a point I've been struggling to get across for a while. Right we're somewhat stalled as it's getting into end of the school/college term and alot of our staff has some heavy homework to do, which understandably comes first.

Posted by: zicyo Apr 13 2007, 04:44 AM

Then I would like to be bold and ask if you are interested in ideas about world creation and lore and stuff, and where I put them. I would rather send them or post them so just the dev-team can read. Not that they are secret or copyright or whatever, I just feel that discussions of lore often contains precious bits that the player want to discover by themself (atleast I do). Not read in advance in a forum and than experience a year or two later. That doesn't hold for all lore, but I am not the person to judge what others enjoy to experience.

Well thats my opinion.

What do you think Pandra, are you interested?

And if you like what I write I'd love to get assignments from you, being research or what is needed to take one more step towards creating the most wonderful experience ever.

Posted by: Pandra Apr 13 2007, 11:56 AM

You can alway PM me through the forums with something you'd like to contribute but don't want to post publically.

If you'd like to join the story team, you can PM me with a request for that as well and I'll have Jerky set up an interview for you.

Posted by: zicyo Apr 13 2007, 12:07 PM

To save you some time and trouble I will first send you some stuff this weekend, then you can decide if you want to go through the trouble with an interview. I think its better if I hang around a while first so the expectations don't get to high and I dont deliver (or get tired of it, not likely though :-)

What do you think?

Posted by: Pandra Apr 13 2007, 02:22 PM

Sounds like a plan to me.