Hi, I'm new and I got a question. Options

[echorev]

both of you josh and alexander get on irc !!!!!

[Alexander]

*hissssssss* Is evil I say, EVIL!!

[joshpurple]

I'll be glad to help you Alexander if you have any questions, etc. I think it could be very fun, cool, to see the Dragon and Goblin knight combo in DWARF

(But, DWARF is static, -it would be just a chance to see how the models would look)

Something we would not be able to do with ToA currently. You have a Cool idea .

[Alexander]

*sigh* With lack for better judgement I installed one of those free IRC thingies...

Sooo How do I contact you guys?

My username is Alexander btw.

*sigh* With lack for better judgement I installed one of those free IRC thingies...

Sooo How do I contact you guys?

My username is Alexander btw.

---

Anyway I PM'ed this to you on the ToA forum but seeing as you are now here I'll say it again.

I don't like dwarf much, first time I tried it, it... Died on me, I just pushed a few buttons and it crashed.

Second time it worked just fine but as I said I don't like it much, give me the good old Unreal Tournament editer anyday... Though that was at least 1 or 2 years ago since I worked with it, and poorly at that.

[joshpurple]

Sooo How do I contact you guys?

Check at the top of the page, and select the Community Button, the drop down list will give you some choices, -select Live Chat.

That should open a Java Chat for you, you'll probably see some pop-up windows for allowing it to run.
I use Windows XP, and IE -hopefully that will work. And you should see a list of people in that Chat.

---

I don't like dwarf much, first time I tried it, it... Died on me, I just pushed a few buttons and it crashed.

Second time it worked just fine but as I said I don't like it much, give me the good old Unreal Tournament editer anyday... Though that was at least 1 or 2 years ago since I worked with it, and poorly at that.

I used to do UT all the time , excellent game. I created characters for it, -started my learning of custom weapons with it, -even joined a team and created the Mod, "UT 1203." ( a medieval UT version ).

As for DWARF, Alexander, I'm not sure if the 'community' idea is clicking with your vision. Comparing, or even thinking of, DWARF currently as something on the level of the UT Editor, -is like comparing a great home built bike (Harley, of course ) to an Indy 500 Race Car.

Millions of dollars went into UT, that is millions and millions of dollars, and teams of some of the (at the time) BEST industry talent and skills.

Here, at Project Wish, people do things for FREE. This community has only been doing it for ~ 2 years (I'm not sure on the exact start date of PW). People who are learning, people who are volunteering, people who are showing a LOVE for the game, and a passion and desire for creating something that they are not getting paid to do. DWARF was recently released, it has Alpha written all over it, -a new version is coming out, I can't stress enough what an awesome job it is to see DWARF created and working.

It is not, "What can DWARF do for me?" It is, "What can I do for DWARF." UT is making people money, millions and millions of dollars. Comparing the UT Editor to DWARF is missing the point. What would be impressive, and something that gains praise and respect is, -what talent you can show in creating content with DWARF. If you can create scenes, like the ones displayed in the screenshots, etc. then you are building game content for the whole community, -sharing & helping to build in the dreams of this community. The communities "Wish" if you will.

That takes work, lots of very frustrating work. Lots of DWARF crashing, or freezing, -not being able to import the mesh with the correct material, losing a great scene that you've worked on because you forgot to save when DWARF crashed. It takes learning, lots of learning new programs, working with what programs are free (like Blender), problem solving, even spending your own money on trying to create a solution for the community -knowing that your attempt might completely fail, or take months to even get a start on.

Thinking that DWARF currently should be a UT Editor, shows that you are looking to buy a game & play it. In that case, I would recommend you find a great retail game and enjoy!

If you are interested in PW, -and it doesn't have to be just in terms of DWARF (there is programming, audio, concept art, Teams that work on different projects, etc.), then PW offers you the chance to join the community as a fan, as a Dev, as someone who wants to share ideas for online games, for news, as someone who can come here and talk to the Devs, learn, make some friends, network, engage in RP, etc.
But, it is a Project that is a work in progress, and the community is trying to make that happen.

I don't mean to sound 'harsh,' I'm only giving my honest view, and hoping to share my understanding of how I see Project Wish .

[Alexander]

I love honest views and it can't be harsh enough. I know there is more then a few miles difference between the two and I was simply comparing the two because I've never worked any anything like this, I'm a complete rookie.

And, I've come to a new understanding.

I've come to a new understanding on Project Wish tonight. Finally I get it, Project Wish is not a UMMORPG but actually a UMMOH&S game as in Hack & Slash. I don't know why I haven't noticed this sooner that this game is not a RPG but an H&S.

You people aren’t trying to build a RPG but just a grand sized Hack & Slash game, I guess I could live if that. Might even helpout I guess, got nothing better to do.

[zicyo]

...
And, I've come to a new understanding.

I've come to a new understanding on Project Wish tonight. Finally I get it, Project Wish is not a UMMORPG but actually a UMMOH&S game as in Hack & Slash. I don't know why I haven't noticed this sooner that this game is not a RPG but an H&S.

You people aren’t trying to build a RPG but just a grand sized Hack & Slash game, I guess I could live if that.
...

Hmm this thread takes another interesting turn.

How did you come to that conclusion Alexander?

[Alexander]

Alright, I'll elaborate but before that I want you to honestly know that I am an insane madman. Now with that clear I shall begin to explain.

What is the difference between a Roleplaying game and a Hack&Slash game? Does anyone really know or has anyone ever really asked himself this question?

One could say that a Roleplaying game is a game where one assumes the role of a character or profession and plays this persona out thro whatever path is set in the game. But in that light is not every game a roleplaying game? In a racer game do you not assume the career of a racer or even just a car? In an adventure or puzzle game do you not play the role of that adventurer, detective or whatever weird character you move around in to solve those puzzles? So since this term is so wide and all encompassing does it not seem reasonable to be more specific and narrow it a bit?

Now, a Hack&Slash game is a game where you create a persona, usually a warrior or sorcerer of sorts and you literary hack and slash your way thro the game with sword and or spell right? Right! So in this light I could even rule under the genre H&S the supposedly RPG of Neverwinter Nights right? For is this not just the same as a session of Diabo only with more options available for your hacking and slashing character while it goes about quests that offer only a little wider range of possible but still preset ending conditions? Indeed it does if you give it a little thought.

So in the light of these two revelation that are actually plain knowledge to all I reason that actually no real RPG game exists in our time nor all of our past. Every one of them is but a extravagant Hack&Slash game.

What then is an RPG? How shut this genre be best described?

In my opinion a Roleplaying game is above one thing this: Freedom. Yes, freedom, of movement, of choice, of storyline, of outcome. The freedom to chose how you, the player, do your quests and proceed with the storyline of the game you play. Better yet you make the story for you are the story. That is a Roleplaying game to me.

Example Quest: Somehow you've accepted to take on the quest of rescuing a fair maiden from a tall tower guarded by a horde of orcs and a fiery dragon. How do you go about this? Most people, and with that I mean ALL people don't actually go about this at all. They do what comes natural, and instead of considering the situation the hero is in he charges into the fray head on fully confident that he is able to take on whatever lies ahead... Have you ever seen something as foolhardy as this? YES you are have for all of you do this on almost a daily basis! Would it not be logical to first consider the risks of this undertaking? Would it not be wiser to see if you could first delve some lore about the tower and its horse from the local community, rally a few friends or hire what experts you can to stand besides you? Would it not be better to sneak into the tower instead of killing every last orc? And what idiot would willingly stand face to face with a dragon? Those creatures need to be evaded at all cost and must only be fought if you there is no other way to escape them. Yet, all these options are never present in any game and the reason for this is very simple. You see it is far to much work to add all those options into a game that has a preset story-line, it’s simply not worth it and this is not a bad thing. However, by not allowing the player to have true freedom over his actions the game cannot be called a Roleplaying Game anymore. It becomes Hack and Slash.

That is my revelation.

That is why I reason that Project Wish will build a MMOH&S or UMMOH&S if they manage to get 10k to 100k people in one world, one realm.

Interesting no?

[zicyo]

Alright, I'll elaborate but before that I want you to honestly know that I am an insane madman. Now with that clear I shall begin to explain.

What is the difference between a Roleplaying game and a Hack&Slash game? Does anyone really know or has anyone ever really asked himself this question?

...

That is my revelation.

That is why I reason that Project Wish will build a MMOH&S or UMMOH&S if they manage to get 10k to 100k people in one world, one realm.

Interesting no?

Sorry, I still can't see why PW can't deliver the freedom you ask for in the example quest?

[Alexander]

Is PW a point and click game alike to what Wish was supposed to be, alike to Diablo?

[Jerky]

We at PW believe that forced PnC (Point and Click) was one of the ideas that led to the demise of Wish. We will allow PnC with pathfinding, but we will definitely be including WASD movement as well.

Wish had technical reasons why they went with that decision, and were forced to stick with it. We have the freedom to improve anything we didn't like.

[Alexander]

Hmm.. Interesting, I leave the matter unsolved then until I know more.

It is still difficult to find any true guidelines to what PW is planning to create. I'm still looking (probably in all the wrong places) but I cannot find any page or post that outlines what will definably be incorporated into the game.

[Jerky]

That is because there isn't a true set of features yet. It has been brought to our attention many times, but we are not trying to grow our fanbase at the moment, so it doesn't bother me too much.

I will agree that it will become crucially important to have this as news of PW spreads, but for now, we are content to sail below the radar, if you will. My best answer is: "In due time."

The best we can do now is get you started on your learning (through reading the forum), unless you just want to bookmark us and check back in a few months.

[Alexander]

I've already added this forum to my favourites and as long as I'm not ignored and as long as I got stupid things to call out and ask I'm here. Heh-Heh.

So who is this Mole guy? He sounds like a man to my heart, but not in that way, who knows what he is talking about. In the locked archives of this forum I came upon an interesting discussion that he started stating clearly that the developers needed first to discus what they actually wanted with this game.

What I am now looking for is the outcome of whatever meeting(s) that followed from this discussion. If the developers amongst themselves know or have decided upon anything why not display these decisions openly. As far as these things can be told, I wouldn't want to be privy to any info that could damage the security of the project but at least the basic guidelines of what is trying to be achieved here shut be made known to the people.

Developers themselves need those decisions on paper or in writing in order to keep track of them themselves so keeping those decisions and guidelines in the open shut be no extra effort right?

And yet I cannot find them. Or is this the "In due time" that you speak off?
---
On a side note do you remember who wrote the following quote?

Our mission is to create an online persistent world which lets the player immerse themselves in anything they choose. We will provide them the canvas and the paint, so to speak, and they will then paint the picture of their character as they see fit. We plan to recreate the best feelings we have ever recieved from any MMORPG (or any RPG for that matter) in this project. We want this to be a community more than a source of revenue. We want to break the 'cookie cutter' mold that has plagued the MMORPG scene since the coming of Everquest. We want our players/characters to be free in an ever-changing world that has endless possibilities in every direction. This means 'choice' more than it means 'size.' And finally, we want this to be free (no cost) if it is possible when the time comes.

Let me refresh you memory; that was you. That was you voicing out your opinion for a mission statement for Project Wish where you said that choice is more important then size. It is freedom you speak of, more freedom even then ToA can provide, now that is a grand dream, a grand dream.

[Alexander]

---
---
Well I've had some time to read a bit more and I've made some interesting discoveries and it has so far answered all the questions I can come up with and it has affirmed my belief that people here are just trying to create what seems to be a second ToA.

So that only leads me to wonder about it even more, I hope I'll one day see and get to play this game meaning you guys where successful in your hard work. But even so I see no need for two ToA's, although two shots at the same game means only more chances at success, so go for it guys!

All the luck in the world to all of you people!! Success!

[John]

Strange thing is, I've read a lot aswell... And I can't honestly say I really know what game we're making, only that we all want to make it the best game it can be. We may have a lot of ideas, and even similarities to ToA, but until we see some kind of release I wouldn't want to presume anything.

I think we all want to push the boundaries of PW. And unfortunately that means a development with a lot of fluidity and no one defined shape.

[Jerky]

I wrote that on Jan 13, 2005, before I was even a part of the dev team. I was so moved by my beta experience from playing Wish that I knew I had to do something about it. I knew a game like that had to be made. Now, almost 2.5 years later, I am more than ever in that same position.

Nothing has changed and yet so many things have changed. I hope that helps you get a sense of what Wish did to us. If for 2 years, a group of individuals can persevere and be closer to their goal than they were before, they are definitely in a fight worth fighting. I make no excuses for the past two years. We have come a hell of a long way, and have a long ways yet to go. That only makes this a task of greatness to me.

I am glad you are starting to get a sense of what PW is about, even if it is ethereal at times. We hope to be able to live up to what our goals have been. We aren't shooting for an easy goal, we are shooting for the stars.

[Alexander]

*sigh* My head has come up with another thing...

Jerky, you have said as I had quoted that you want to make a great game with lots of choice. But you also said recently that you actually just want to play a nice game that's not all about imitating real-life.

How would you combine these two? On the one end you want freedom and choice which to some extent require a well worked out system that imitates life but on the other hand you just want to play a fun game and see where its limitations take you.

*sigh* Perhaps I'm just to short sighted that I have to see it like I do but I think I might be on to something. What if you make the things your character do very much like real life but you have no control over those things. Your character would just be an AI that lives it digital life by its own needs while you direct its general movement?

Example: Combat could be worked out quite complicated where characters have no hit points but instead get wounded and damages ranging from scratches to broken bones, damaged muscles and vital organ damage. But, the way your character fights isn't entirely up to the player, the character is run by an AI that tells it how and where to strike with its weapon depending on the character's attributes. In that way you can still directs your characters movement of here he's supposed to go but you don't have to do the fighting.

Nice idea?

[Maxwell]

I decided I needed to a least post something here since I read this thread in one fall swoop, (took a little less than an hour), and I would like to say, Welcome Alexander and it is nice to see someone as excited about a true MMORPG as you. As you can see your thoughts have seemed to have gotten this community up on their feet. I also can't wait to read your ideas already on the forums. Keep up the enthusiasm!!

WELCOME TO PROJECT WISH!!

::Confetti falls from the sky::

[joshpurple]

Maxwell you ROCK!