Project Wish  
Project Wish
Project Wish
hardwired

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V < 1 2 3  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Senses and spatial awareness, Why radar may not be so evil after all
Jerky
post May 10 2007, 04:07 PM
Post #41


Former PW Project Manager
**********

Group: PW Admin
Posts: 1,610
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Dallas, GA
Member No.: 62



Yes, as greendots said, it could be done only one thing at a time. And it would use less resources than you think. If you have ever seen Guild Wars, and how their footprint trails are done, ours could be the same way. All it is is a path, done with the pathfinding engine. It could be done with simple mathematics, and then the client would be what reads the path and displays a cloud hovering above the path. Think of X,Y coordinates. Thats how a pathfinding engine would work. It makes a point everytime a turn is made, but an x,y coordinate is a tiny amount of data. Now, add a few turns, and you get 4 x,y coords, thats all. It really wouldn't require that much, so that shouldn't be a reason to say no.

Anyways, I'm not really arguing for or against the idea, just pitching in.


--------------------
Erik Briggs (Jerky)
Project Manager
My Blog
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Exudos
post May 10 2007, 08:55 PM
Post #42


Familiar Face
**

Group: Members
Posts: 32
Joined: 19-March 07
Member No.: 979



QUOTE(Jerky @ May 10 2007, 03:07 PM) *

Yes, as greendots said, it could be done only one thing at a time. And it would use less resources than you think. If you have ever seen Guild Wars, and how their footprint trails are done, ours could be the same way. All it is is a path, done with the pathfinding engine. It could be done with simple mathematics, and then the client would be what reads the path and displays a cloud hovering above the path. Think of X,Y coordinates. Thats how a pathfinding engine would work. It makes a point everytime a turn is made, but an x,y coordinate is a tiny amount of data. Now, add a few turns, and you get 4 x,y coords, thats all. It really wouldn't require that much, so that shouldn't be a reason to say no.

Anyways, I'm not really arguing for or against the idea, just pitching in.


Could also make this cloud wispy and flexible, more a trail of particles? They would blow in the wind that way, and fade away after a certain distance
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jerky
post May 11 2007, 12:09 AM
Post #43


Former PW Project Manager
**********

Group: PW Admin
Posts: 1,610
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Dallas, GA
Member No.: 62



Yes, thats certainly a possiblity.


--------------------
Erik Briggs (Jerky)
Project Manager
My Blog
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
glibdud
post May 11 2007, 08:29 AM
Post #44


Seasoned User
***

Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 30-March 07
Member No.: 998



QUOTE(Jerky @ May 10 2007, 06:07 PM) *

Yes, as greendots said, it could be done only one thing at a time. And it would use less resources than you think. If you have ever seen Guild Wars, and how their footprint trails are done, ours could be the same way. All it is is a path, done with the pathfinding engine. It could be done with simple mathematics, and then the client would be what reads the path and displays a cloud hovering above the path. Think of X,Y coordinates. Thats how a pathfinding engine would work. It makes a point everytime a turn is made, but an x,y coordinate is a tiny amount of data. Now, add a few turns, and you get 4 x,y coords, thats all. It really wouldn't require that much, so that shouldn't be a reason to say no.

Anyways, I'm not really arguing for or against the idea, just pitching in.


To clarify, are you talking about displaying the actual trail that the target has traveled over, or just an arbitrary trail that links the tracker to the target?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jerky
post May 11 2007, 11:32 AM
Post #45


Former PW Project Manager
**********

Group: PW Admin
Posts: 1,610
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Dallas, GA
Member No.: 62



I was thinking the actual trail the target has traveled over.


--------------------
Erik Briggs (Jerky)
Project Manager
My Blog
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
glibdud
post May 11 2007, 03:25 PM
Post #46


Seasoned User
***

Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 30-March 07
Member No.: 998



QUOTE(Jerky @ May 11 2007, 01:32 PM) *

I was thinking the actual trail the target has traveled over.


Hmm. Ok, well my (extremely untrained) instinct says that's an awful lot of data to have to keep track of for each mob... coordinates he followed for the last X minutes. Not to mention then having to find out what creatures have traveled by in the past X minutes so their trails can be displayed. But hey... if it works, I like it.

That's good for a tracking interface, but it doesn't cover everything you can smell... just the things that move. I think you should also be able to smell the zombie hiding motionless in the dense brush, or the rare flower used as a reagent. Would those need a separate interface?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jerky
post May 11 2007, 03:47 PM
Post #47


Former PW Project Manager
**********

Group: PW Admin
Posts: 1,610
Joined: 11-January 05
From: Dallas, GA
Member No.: 62



Well, there are more fancy ways of doing it. For instance, the server, because of spatial partioning (read zones) will have things compartmentalized and divided up amongt itself in manageable chunks. One portion of this could cover tracks, (which like I said, could be done using very little data), but would also check for characters in the area. If no people are around, within a certain distance, it could not record the info, as it wouldnt be used. Thats just a very brief overview of how it could work.

There are many other possible solutions for this, if we decide its something we want.


--------------------
Erik Briggs (Jerky)
Project Manager
My Blog
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Honis
post May 11 2007, 04:09 PM
Post #48


Veteran
*****

Group: PW Developer
Posts: 156
Joined: 27-July 05
From: Southern IL
Member No.: 539



4 or 5 points would be cool. Then make it 'curve' use curve fitting methods on the client side when drawing.

I've programmed a few methods, but they are in a box at the moment. MATLAB was able to take out hundreds of points in one second, so it would be nothing for a client PC to calculate 4 or 5 points.

I'll look back in my notes if I get a chance to recommend methods.


[edit] I really like doing curve fitting methods happy.gif
PS You could probably find some written code online if its not your cup of tea smile.gif

This post has been edited by Honis: May 11 2007, 04:14 PM


--------------------
IPB Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RicoSuave
post May 16 2007, 09:34 AM
Post #49


Master
******

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 22-March 06
From: (Undisclosed)
Member No.: 585



I haven't read all of these post in this thread yet, but Alex made some fantastic points in his post:
QUOTE(Alexander @ May 8 2007, 11:31 AM) *
... smell doesn’t bounce off matter and then enters [sic] your nose giving you prices [sic] direction of its source. Smell works slower and it works with the wind. Remember that you can tell who’s at your back by smelling the air for traces of their odour. Your nose only tells you the smell of something that passes by your nose, it doesn’t perceive objects from far away so you’ll have to guess where it came from by guessing.
Alex hit the nail on the head (so did Jerky). Please don't have trails of scent be displayed. Make it be like Battleship where you have to find the trail, then track it one of two ways... and have Jerky's Scent-Bubble shift as the wind changes.



QUOTE(Alexander @ May 8 2007, 11:31 AM) *
... I rather like the idea for [sic] not having radar for sound but have a small arrow at the base of your characters feet point in the direction it heard something unique, let the arrow flicker for a second or two or three and let that be it (unless the sound persists like a dragons [sic] roar that might last for 10 seconds before it opens to hunt on ya.)
Great idea! I would like to add to it just slightly please. Make the arrow 3-Dimentional so it doesn't have to move around the outside of the viewpane (like Flight Sims are forced to do). Have it grow slightly for near/loud objects and shrink for distant/quiet objects. That way we can tell if something is in front of us vs. above us, or behind us vs. below us.




QUOTE(Alexander @ May 8 2007, 11:31 AM) *
... {Referencing Blindsight, et al} No longer do you have to guess what’s behind dungeon door number 2 you already know that there are 3 zombies behind it scuffling about the room. People will finally have a real challenge sneaking up against that dragon with its large Blindsight radar that detects even magically invisible characters.

Ok but how does it work in a correct manner? With Tremorsense you could possibly detect invisible creatures. (If they are in contact with the element your Tremorsense works with, usually the ground but it could just as easily be water or air.) But you still can’t actually see them, you only know the general location. You could do this in two ways and I would actually like to see both of them used together to greater effect. You can simply display all moving objects and creatures on your radar and/or you can have coloured 5/5feet squares on the screen indicating that something is walking there.
Reading this brought to mind a way to implement this that would look cool, but might be difficult to code. I'd like to ask some of the Dev Team for input here. My idea (if possible/probable) is to have a different viewpane pop up when 'Blindsight' is being used. The everyday color-vision that we're used to seeing in all other MMORPGs, FPS, etc. would be replaced by a different type of view. I'm imagining instead of color, all images be good ol' Black-n-White. However, instead of sharp images, only indiscrete masses (like a cloud) would be seen. This cloud could become sharper as you become more familiar with using the skill or inate ability (rank up).

Here's the kicker... this would not be a persistant ability. Much like a strobe light that only allows updated visual perseption when light is present, the 'Blindsight' would only give the player visual cues when there are reflective noises present (clicks, footsteps, shuffles, clanking armor). The longer the noise, the longer the viewpane would display helpful feedback. The sharper and more precise the noise, the sharper and clearer the image would be. Imagine as Alex said, bats that use high-pitched clicks that reflect a mosquito's exact location and size in midair. Then imagine a shuffling noise behind you... it could be your henchman dragging the loot out of a dungeon or a zombie's lame foot that ate your henchman, you'd have to turn to see to get a clear picture (or if using 'Blindsight,' clank your sword against your shield to produce a sharper sound to 'see' what it actually was). Realize the viewpane wouldn't flicker like a strobe light, more like fade out as the reliability of the object's location in space and time deminishes.

Cool thread! I think the basis for Jerky's model is sound ("sound" as in well-thought out). I would recommend just a slight shift in size and shape of the perceptive objects.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Alexander
post May 16 2007, 12:04 PM
Post #50


Newbie
*

Group: Banned
Posts: 0
Joined: 4-May 07
Member No.: 1,062



3D isn't entirely necessary but you did spot something I missed to mention fully. Sounds can easily come from above or below your character. Simply having the arrow curve up or down nicely shut prove to be enough. Same way of how long the arrow is to how distant the sound it the more it curves the higher or lower it is.

Or if what you mean with 3D that the arrow just doesn't need to stick to the ground then that's fine with me too. It can also point strait all the time, be it up, down or on level with the character. The only minor detail is that an arrow based on the feet of the character shows will point throe the ground if it has to point down. Only a problem if you are standing on ground that it.

However I don't think you get completely what I mean with blindsense. It isn't sight, it isn't even one sense, its the combination of all your senses that allow you to detect the smallest details of your surroundings. Meaning where one sense would fail another compensates by picking it up and still give you a clue that something is out there. The key to Blindsight is that you don't just see in front of you, you can 'see' all around with it, and even past or thro solid objects. (as with Tremorsense for example) It's not something you activate (possible perhaps with spells and such but the original intent of the ability is a permanent one, nothing special, just very good senses) you just have it, its natural.

I'm more in favour of using black and white for dark-vision actually. The ability to see completely without light, abide only in black and white. A cool (and necessary) feature for cave and underground dwelling creatures whose normal vision above ground would be worse, perhaps by playing with much brighter colours and much more glow to make it hard on the player to make out what is what.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
glibdud
post May 16 2007, 12:24 PM
Post #51


Seasoned User
***

Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 30-March 07
Member No.: 998



QUOTE(RicoSuave @ May 16 2007, 11:34 AM) *

I haven't read all of these post in this thread yet, but Alex made some fantastic points in his post:Alex hit the nail on the head (so did Jerky). Please don't have trails of scent be displayed. Make it be like Battleship where you have to find the trail, then track it one of two ways... and have Jerky's Scent-Bubble shift as the wind changes.


I think the theory is that creatures leave a trail of scent on things they touch, sweat dripping to the ground, etc. Think bloodhound following a trail. This would probably only be worthwhile for races with a specifically honed sense of smell.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Maxwell
post May 16 2007, 12:27 PM
Post #52


Master
******

Group: Members
Posts: 250
Joined: 11-October 05
From: Salisbury, Md
Member No.: 560



I think that all of these idea's are great, but why throw at every race. Why not make each race dependent, I think that would be very interesting. Personally I think that it should have to be activated, otherwise it is going to drive you insane. Something that is race dependent like this I find very interesting. This will kind of give each race a cool little trick instead of just stats.


--------------------
Programming is a complex blend of art, science, logic, engineering, design, and craftsmanship
-Steve Yegge
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RicoSuave
post May 18 2007, 08:48 AM
Post #53


Master
******

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 22-March 06
From: (Undisclosed)
Member No.: 585



QUOTE(echorev @ May 9 2007, 01:30 PM) *
... I'm not sure about the main difference between the player and character's ability to hear. If a dragon roars behind you, and you have speakers, you'll definitely hear that. Why do you need an arrow to point behind you to show that your character hears it too ? Aren't you your character ?

Along with sight, sound is something the player and the character can both experience, so I don't really see a pressing need to implement something that will separate the player and character on this.
Main idea would be for those without surround sound (or even those needed to mute speakers for a short while -- like while Jerky's baby is sleeping).
IF we have this implemented, I think it would be a great way for some player vs player interaction having one be able to distract the other. Perhaps a thrown rock would make the aural-indicator (arrow or whatever) point off in a separate direction than where the player actually is.

I've seen in WoW (I believe) that when a rogue distracts someone else, they automatically turn around like stupid, thoughtless zombies, following any little sound to their death, out of the control of the character. I think the player should have 100% control of whether they choose to turn and look or not. THEN it really does make the PvP battle player versus player... much like a chess game, do you throw the rock behind the opponent getting him to turn around? Does he? Does he figure that it was thrown behind him and in fact look the other way? If I was the rogue, it would take great thought of how I wanted to distract my adversary. There has been much talk about taking Munchkiny out of the game and put tactics into the players' hands. This might be one of those ways.



As for smells:
Man! I wouldn't want to track JP's goblin on a scent trail. Could you imagine? wacko.gif
*RicoSuave reels in sickening pain at the horror of a burning nasal cavity*
It could actually be quite a good defense technique. Sensory Overload (Rank 3)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RicoSuave
post May 18 2007, 09:40 AM
Post #54


Master
******

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 22-March 06
From: (Undisclosed)
Member No.: 585



QUOTE(Alexander @ May 16 2007, 12:04 PM) *
... However I don't think you get completely what I mean with blindsense. It isn't sight, it isn't even one sense, its the combination of all your senses that allow you to detect the smallest details of your surroundings...
Oh yes, I understood, but I was trying to evolve what you'd like to see into what I'd like to see. I used your quote just as a good basis. I understand how our ideas differ quite a bit, but I needed a foundation to build off of.

When I was typing about my idea, I was picturing little cave-dwelling creatures (whatever you want to call them, 'Cavethings' I guess is fine for here). I imagined these Cavethings not having any eyes whatsoever, completely 100% blind as we know it. However, they are not senseless. Their Blindsight senses allow them to "see" perfectly for their environment.

I was also thinking about (please don't laugh) Van Damm in that one movie where he's fighting (yes I know that doesn't help, Bloodsport maybe?) and he gets blinded by something, sand I think... whatever. He has to fight using his other senses. He obviously does well enough. How is this much different than what we have the power to do in this game!? Think about it. You're battling some magic-wielding dude and he casts BLIND, the universally-loved default spell of all magi. Your viewpane goes BLACK! That doesn't mean you can't act nor move, or even wander around aimlessly, like another game I'll leave nameless. You should still be able to swing your stick and whack at him, just completely blind. You might hit him, you might glaze him, you might crush your healer's skull instead. blink.gif It might just be better to sit it out at that point.

HOWEVER, with Blindsight, you simply click your Uber-button and jump back in (to a semi-limited extent). Think about a priest accidently healing the enemy; but now you might have a change of throwing one down on your meat shield instead. Imagine your blinded friendly archer demolishing your party with a few dozen misplaced missiles; now he might only hit a few. laugh.gif Or think about the effect it would have on a Cavething. None at all, right?

It would take well-placed tactics to leave an opponent COMPLETELY senseless: Blind, Deafen, Numbing Acid, Tremor Shock, and so on. Meanwhile, you could still have a fighting chance against that mean, ol' mage... maybe not if you play WoW... oops! I mentioned it.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Alexander
post May 18 2007, 01:01 PM
Post #55


Newbie
*

Group: Banned
Posts: 0
Joined: 4-May 07
Member No.: 1,062



You can bash on WoW as much as you want but at least that game is brining in the millions. Not something I see this game doing anytime soon or at all. I'm not a fan of WoW and I choose not to play it but I cannot deny its a work of art. It's a game for little kids true enough, but a great game nonetheless.

But your comparison with Bloodsport is sufficient, that's basically it but taken to a higher level and wider range.

It would be interesting though to have a completely blind race in the game. No visual, just sound and touch, mental images. That would be a cool race for underground. Good thinking RicoSuave.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RicoSuave
post May 13 2008, 08:30 PM
Post #56


Master
******

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 22-March 06
From: (Undisclosed)
Member No.: 585



I'm going to resurrect an old thread...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330241,00.html talks briefly on Echolocation. Please read it prior to continuing to read this post. Thanks.


What if we were to have a race/skill/whatever able to have the character see either in dark environments (night, cave, etc.) or perhaps temporary or otherwise blinded in a fight (spell, thrown sand, etc.) and still be able to "see" well enough.

Obviously, the client's screen wouldn't update like normal. Maybe it would strobe with the frequency of the clicks. I envision having the screen change from normal, colorful images to a screen devoid of color, black & white, during this time period and only having outlines of solid objects (i.e. trees, monsters, people, cave walls, buildings).

As for coding this in, I've given that a tiny bit of thought, too. Pre-Alpha One will probably have some sort of rudimentary graphical display to the client: low detail, sharp angles, lack of high quality color and antialiasing, and perhaps low resolution (800x600). What if we were to keep all this functionality 99% the same and just implement a retro-graphical display for a short period of time. That way, current code NJPaul and Minthos (or whomever) are working on can still be expanded, but code present at this exact moment can be imported into the engine as-is. I think it might be a bit of a morale boost to know that a tidbit of final ingame code is nearing completion.

But please understand that I realize that this might be disregarded completely, especially since Alexander approved a part of this previously... {I'm filled with shame!} mellow.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ethan
post May 16 2008, 09:04 AM
Post #57


Newbie
*

Group: PW Developer
Posts: 22
Joined: 11-August 07
Member No.: 1,101



Only another reference : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLziFMF4DHA
It's a documentary about an echolocator. ( I don't know if the word exits but I don't care. biggrin.gif )


--------------------
Want to discuss about MMO/RPG Design?
Then you might want to read
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
ghedipunk
post May 24 2008, 12:20 AM
Post #58


PW Programmer
***

Group: PW Developer
Posts: 65
Joined: 3-May 06
Member No.: 596



When I think of echolocation being used, I imagine the world being a bit more varied than simply monochrome.

When you strike wood, it makes a different sound than if you strike flesh, or strike metal.

Echoes are also effected by this as well... After all, an echo is simply a wave of air striking on object, then that object creating a new sound in response.

So, wood would have a brown color. Dirt and stones would be grayscale. Flesh would be a pale orange. Metal would be a sharp red... Other objects would dampen the sound, such as hair on flesh, or leaves and grass, creating a "darker" patch where less sound is reflected back.

Also, primary sounds are much louder than an echo. When a person takes a step, their feet could, perhaps, be ringed in a bright white halo, and any creature using active sonar (like bats) would show up blindingly bright as well.

The sky would, of course, be black, because nothing is reflecting sound back at the person using the echolocation.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages V < 1 2 3
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 04:24 AM
Original skin by: b6gm6n | Conversion by: Chris Y
hardwired
  hardwired
hardwired hardwired
hardwired hardwired