There's a post on the Idea forum that started to discuss this idea, and I wanted to post it here and run it by you guys.
Basicaly I was thinking that we could make a scale system for each instrument. Think of like the neck of a gituar. Most gutiars have 7-12 bars, and each bar makes a seperate sound when struck. In order to make different pitches and depths the gituarists would have to apply pressure to a bar inorder to make different sounds.
This method could be applyed to almost all instruments, even the wind-based ones. With a bar that would represent how hard one would blow into the instrument.
Hey, just a thought!
Thats what I was waiting to hear actually :). To re-coin the phrase: "its better to be safe than sorry."
Jer, the thing is, we don't know what would work to protect us and what wouldn't. We would need real legal advice (not just someone's cousin over the dinner table), which would be expensive--the main reason we haven't done anything about it yet--and even if we had good legal representation we might or might not have lawsuits. Whether or not you win a lawsuit is pretty much immaterial in a case like ours, unless you go for pyrrhic moral victories. The mere fact of having to deal with one that has any legitimacy at all would be devastating to a small unfunded project. They drag on and on and they cost major money, and even if you win and get your costs paid, you had to support it till you get there and you don't get there fast.
Maybe I'm just too old and have been around too long and seen what this kind of thing can do. What we all think "ought to be" the case isn't important; what the reality of the law happens to be is what counts.
Speaking to everyone in this thread--if you are young, if you don't have any personal assets, if you haven't been involved in a lawsuit or closely acquainted with how it all works (ie, unless you ARE a lawyer) then please realize that you really are not yet able to judge the gravity of the issue.
I realize I'm taking a very unpopular position here. I feel like Cassandra. But I do think sometimes you need to listen to the voice of the elderly--every now and then we know what we're talking about. ;)
Would a section devoted to this in our EULA (End-User License Agreement, that thing you click yes to when installing and opening some games) fix or help the problem? I know Melanthe mentioned it already. That is how most/all software escapes blame of users' use of it.
Very true, but we'll be incorporated before copyright issues become a problem (or at least we should be). The problem then is that we'd still be at risk of losing the server and the art assets :cry:. But still, for reasons I've already explained, I doubt we'd be held liable for infringment by players. I mean hell, if "the man" can't successfully sue Bram Cohen (bittorrent creator), I doubt we would have much to worry about.
Yes, yes, I know all about how unfair it is that you don't get to do whatever you like with copyrighted work. Believe me, I've heard all that over and over. All I can say is, if someone hadn't put in the effort to create the work, it wouldn't exist. I look at it from entirely the opposite point of view, it seem unfair to me that someone could be trying to make a living writing songs and music and just have to do it for free because other people happen to like their work a whole lot. :p
Nobody is going to get arrested for copyright infringement; however people do get sued. The whole business of what constitutes copyright infringement with regards to the internet is murky and evolving. As we've discussed before and so far not addressed, there are many legal risks in a project like this, and =right now= the individuals who are working on it have their personal assets at risk. This includes, for instance, Jerky's new house, just to give you an idea of the stakes here.
This is serious business, guys. Go ahead and check with a lawyer, or do some reading on the net. (Though beware of sites with agendas to push.) The law is easy to research in this case.
^,^ My my, what a lively moster of a post I have created! *thumbs up*
I'd have to ask a few lawyer friends about it.
I figured that was a given. What I was actually asking, was how could you prevent players from writing modern music? The point I was trying to make with the "Drum'n'Bass" reference, is that a player could easily replicate "Drum'n'Bass" techno no matter what instruments you include. Techno is, after all basically a series of pre-recorded sounds arrangeed into a song, which is more or less the system you folks have proposed.
Yup, it's all public domain by now. Of course nowadays we've got corporate sleazebags buying legislation to get copyrights extended indefinitely, you know, to protect the artists :roll:. So in a few years when the copyright extension act is due to expire we'll probably have eternal copyrights instead.
--------
*EDIT*
...
-songs being played in paradies or whatnot ...
I'm not sure about the rest of your examples, but I know that parodies are protected by "fair use" laws.
Melanthe, I'm not familiar with the laws, and I'm probably wrong on all this, but if we're not allowed to perform other people's things, a lot of us would be arrested... like... (again, I may be unclear and wrong on this..)
-people playing concerts, or talent shows, classical or pop, like in school concerts or gigs, etc...
-people, like, on American Idol playing other people's songs on TV and auditioning with them (they may get permission, but I don't know)
-songs being played in paradies or whatnot
-people humming melodies in public (that's probably a stupid example..)
And much more (you could tell I was running out of ideas..)
I don't know about the exceptions either, but it pretty clearly states we're not allowed to perform this stuff...
And I don't know about the copyright lasting to the composer's death, because there are contemperary composers, and people perform their music all the time without permission... Again, I'm not familiar with the laws...
However, I do know that copying the sheet music and distributing it is illegal, so viewing sheet music and such isn't going to be legal of course, but I'm still unclear on the performing aspect...
And I'm sorry for just thinking I can get around the laws... it's really ignorant to think that, but I'm not sure... there's basically no way of telling whether something you wrote is someone else's or not, so there really is almost no way to get around this problem... no matter what interface we have, someone can almost always copy a melody... Unless you're a Pyrrhonist or something... (in that in the skepticism of our own logic, something different is possible?... okay, that was superfluous..)
I am with exocrine with the point about not having any instruments close to an electric guitar or anything producing modern sounds: This would destroy the middle ages atmospehre completely. Additionally i think not having modern instruments wouldn't suffice to keep modern music out of the world, people would just use the old instruments to reproduce modern music.
Even if you dont worry about copyright infringement in this matter i think that could break the game's immersion substantially. But maybe there could be a way to keep players from playing modern music, but i cannot figure a gracefull one just at this time. (But yes, maybe the good old sword would be the last alternative if talking doesn't help).
A side note on the copyright on classical music: i think copyright lasts only a certain period after the creators death, so reproducing classical music cannot be a infringement of copyright. But i am not completely sure about this, lesser even in an international context.
Well I think there are some big misconceptions about copyright in this thread.
Getting caught or not is not the issue. Copyright infringement is the issue.
A copyright gives the owner the exclusive right to reproduce, distribute, perform, display, or license his work. The owner also receives the exclusive right to produce or license derivatives of his or her work. Limited exceptions to this exclusivity exist for types of "fair use", such as book reviews. Under current law, works are covered whether or not a copyright notice is attached and whether or not the work is registered.
See http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/topics/copyright.html
Crediting the copyright holder has nothing to do with infringement one way or the other. So forget that, it's irrelevant. Just because you say "this was originally written by X" that doesn't give you the right to copy it or perform it.
I like the idea of players being able to make music. Perhaps there is a way to deal with this. However, copyright infringement is not an issue that we can ignore.
You can write out an interface if you like but don't expect to skip around this issue with arm-waving about how "everybody else does it." Before we spend any time or effort on this we need to understand copyright law and the current court views on it in detail.
Possum,
Person who makes her living from her copyrighted work and takes it deadly seriously
I'll work on drawing out an interface or something of that nature..
Exocrine, thanks for informing me about that... however, all these pop groups are stealing melodies from classical music, since no one hears these songs, and if people don't know, they won't get caught...
But bands are allowed to play other people's music as long as they say it isn't theirs, so if you take a melody from someone, you have to say "in variation" or something of that nature...
We can just make up some "enchanted" instrument or something that resembles modern instruments, like Static said...
For the people who haven't experienced music, this could be a way to learn... because in the interface that's used for computer music writing (which I don't really use... still stick to pen and paper..) pretty much anyone can get the hang of it... As long as you know what the symbols mean. Again, I'll try to write out an interface of some sort...
Thanks for the technical support Exo.
Now I understand the confusion about reading of sheet music, but lets go back and re-think out this whole thing. And the closest we'd get to bass is a chello. :wink: :wink:
I'd just like to remind all that none of the instruments in our world will be electricaly charged. Mabye spiritualy enhanced or enchanted, but not plugged into the wall. ^,^
I'd also like to see two menus, basic and advanced. The basic of course for the newer musicans so that they can learn how to go about learning their way around the instrument.
And since I'm thinking about it, a few basic, advanced and master songs ( Solo and group) would be benificerary, it would give people an idea of what to fallow?
In addition, I'd like to see some training for musicans, espically on the bridge between begginer and advanced musican.
Stringed Instruments: ( Begginer )
Would have a menu pop up displaying 5 strings. There would be a Tempo Bar ( How long between each note) And A Slide/strike button ( It would help vary the sound the instrument hit.
(Advanced) Has the same functions as above but with a few varying buttons. An Over Lap option, which is basicaly a clip over all of the selected bars. ( just to take the concern off of using that bar) A syncronize option would be something neat too, when you're in a group and playing a custom song.
I'd like to keep everything preety simple, because playing an instrument is not easy, but we can make it so.
I think Luna would be a big hand in all this, espically the how-to parts.
Well actually, no they can't. Two cases that come to mind are Vanilla Ice, and Eminem. Both got caught sampling from other artists without permission or acknowledgement. Vanilla Ice got off because he claimed it was just a coincidence :roll:, but I'm not sure about Eminem, I didn't really follow that story very closely. But the point is, that you have to give credit where credit is due, and pay royalties on top of it. If you do then there's no problem, if you don't then that's copyright infringement. Of course, none of that ever stopped Elvis Presley.
-----
Anyway, I've been doing a bit of reading. It seems that this type of sytem would be protected under the Sony Betamax ruling. Basically the courts (in the US anyway) decided that a technology developer cannot be held liable if their product had substantial legal uses (the vcr in that case). It's the same thing that has been protecting Grokster against MGM. As far as hosting copyright infringing files, I'm pretty sure we'd be protected there also. I'm not sure how it all works, but internet hosting companies can't be sued over something their users uploads. There's probably something in the EULA that protects them against liability.
So, I only have two lasting concerns. The first is how to ensure that user created music fits into the gameworld. I mean, given some drums and a bass... well, you get the picture. That kind of thing would be incredibly immersion breaking. Second is the fact that this kind of system is only accessible to players who are some sort of musician in real life. Regular folk such as myself have no clue how to even read sheet music, much less write it. Should we be excluded from the fun?
Ta da! A happy alternative to blood and guts! The seed of creativity has been planted.
No, if you read my input on the staffs, and the problem of copying music time consumin, I think I knew what you meant... I hope..
Even though people create their music and perform it, they can still take other people's ideas.. but again, it's just like real life... anyone can do that...
And really, if this is a profession, I don't see how it's that much less important than fighting, since one of the aims of the game is emphasis on other things besides fighting... although this sort of thing is probably in less demand, it could really open things up... concerts, orchestras, bands, instrument crafting, etc... instead of guilds, there're orchestras, bands, and choirs... (maybe even a more realtime based performance, but I'd have to work it out..) Instead of crafting weapons, craft instruments... instead of leveling up the ability to lodge a blade into a skull of the enemy (and getting away with it), the ability to create music... But it's probably too early to decide anything, as everyone says.. Well, I shouldn't say "instead" but more, "in addition"....
.... :evil: You all thought I ment import music from MP3s or some crap and play it in game? When I detailed a way for characters to write their own.
*takes deap breaths and trys to calm down* ....no.
:x Grr. I never said or implyed that!
I believe that the muscian should be able to write down the notes * USING A MUSICANSHIP SKILL!!SKILL* So that he may pass on his music. Be it to others through trade, or for a preformance.
YOur skill as a musican would be just as much in game as it would be in life.
And now Im going to go find something soft and fuzzy to kill. :twisted:
The things you peoplez makes me do!
I think Static Grazer is right... we don't have to have the songs "downloadable" or whatnot by other people. People have other people's music playing on their blogs... it's just like a performance in real life. People play pop songs that they didn't write, and they don't get arrested. Especially classical, all classical musicians play (usually) are other people's works, so I don't see why we shouldn't be able to play these online, given that we say its theirs... but then again, people in real life can play other people's works and say its theirs.... so how is it really more of a problem here than real life?
Since it's not going to be stored on the server, it's more just like a "one time performance"... so the artist may be more in demand...
And besides, if we use the staff method I said in the previous most, (or almost any other method) making music is a little time consuming, so a lot of people won't bother with it. We should have it so that we must only be able to do it in game, so we can't just copy and paste sheet music.
(edit) I didn't realize Jerky posted while I was making this post (end edit)
Ahh, I disagree. I see that you do understand what napster was (unlike the millions of others out there), but making midi music is not stealing the original. Napster's problem was that they were exact copies of the original. It was the same thing you would get from buying the CD. What of all the people who make Nintendo music midis? Or recreate on of Bach's pieces in midi? Nothing. That is because they are that particular user's own work at copying the original. There will be errors and whatnot.
As long as we make it so that there is no way to play .mp3 files in game and that our files are not standard midi files (and can be imported into the game to be played) we should be ok. With our own file type, or way of storing their works that is different than standards out there, they will be forced to do the work on their own, and in so doing, be clean from any problems with copyright infringment.
That is exactly what will work. We make it so in order to have their music in the game, that they have to compose it in game. In so doing, it becomes their own work. Even if it is a rendition of something already out there, it can be considered educational, so even if copyright is brought up, educational use is a legal use of copyright.
All this is moot if we decide this is too much trouble anyways :).
The system you guys are talking about is no different than what napster was before it went to court. The problem with producing the copyrighted music in the game is that they are not paying the artist for that music. And as to Jerky's idea of having the music transfer directly from one user to another without it being stored on the server... well that is napster. I dont think players composing their own music will work. Sure lets give them songs and stuff they can learn but lets have our sound guys make the songs so that there is no risk of every having to worry about Copyrights. It would be like SWG where players can learn and play set songs. But we could also add in different timpos to those songs so that they have some flexability and such.
Okay okay, hold on one mnute, lets back up. Even if a player did manage to recreate a copywrited song, so what?
I think there are two main issues we need to get around here.
1: Not giving credit to the original Artists.
-- I think we could solve this by giving the sheet music a 'name song' option. Where a player could give credit where credit is due. And if he/she doesn't, then the copywrite infringment is on their heads, not ours.
2: Punishment could be handled in a series of events.
-- If a player is caught playing a song without abiding by the copywrite laws they will be given a system of warnings.
--Verbal warning. Including a shaking of the finger and a quick talking to
--A second verbal warning, along with breaking of their current instrament.
-- A violent verbal warning, breaking of the currently used instrament and the taking away of the sheet music which is infringing the copy write laws.
-- And finally, if the player just refuses all of the warnings and such, we set the character to 'musicaly inclined'. IE, he can no longer play music of any kind.
3: I'd also like to point out that the player will not be using the music for real world finances
If all else fails we can get some corperate CEO guy to come in here and make sure it's all good.
Copyright in this area can be looked at like guitar tabs and the websites that host them. Exact rips from published tabs are ingringment. Hard work done by the user to make the tab with their name on it is still their work. That is a talent in and of itself.
Here is a thought on the original idea:
Skill level 0-4 gets one scale and no transcription. All they get is to play 8 notes in real time. Sometimes the notes can come out wrong (flat or sharp). Skill 5-9: Less wrong notes and a new scale. Let the user choose what scale to unlock maybe. 10-14: Another unlock and less mistakes. 5-19: another and less. 20-29: Let them transcribe notes and have access to 5 scales now. Their notes are limited to standard quarter, half and whole notes. Higher levels: unlocking tempo, styles (staccato, etc.), note types (eighth notes, etc.) and so on. No point in going further unless this is an adopted idea.
I like the idea of giving the player another profession to learn. It would be really cool. Their notes could go straight to the midi driver and be pretty simple. We would need a sound programmer on the project who wants this feature to do the programming (so our programmers could stick to the other vital things).
To stop copyright infringment, we could make sure that their compositions are stored on their computers, so nothing is stored on the servers that could be considered a copyright infringment. Let other users who want to hear their music have to go introduce themselves and then download the compostion to their computer so that their midi driver can know what to play. Again, this is just a simple explaination. I do not want to explain it all in detail if this is not going to happen, but that is the gist of it.
It is a possibility, but should be considered one of those Icing-on-the-cake ideas.
i dont think this could work to be honest, same prob as mentioned above, you cant stop ppl from recreating copywrighten material. or atleast it would be very tough to do.
i think a player should only be able to play standart melodies which he/she has found/bought or been taught ingame. think thats the only way it possibly could work :?
if you have got other ideas on how it could work however, please post m, cause i think it could be fun to compose your own music
Yes, but how would we go about it? What would be the consequences of reproducing copyrighted material? What if no one realizes it was copyrighted in time? Copyrights are a very touchy subject these days, so any system of deterrents needs to be fool-proof.
Eh, avoiding copywrite infringment is easy. We just discurage it.
^,^!
You could always look to the interface of what "already written" music programs have... but a bar for vollume isn't something in a lot of them...
The interface is usually that of a staff (5 lines to write music on), having the cleff according to the instrument, which people who don't know music can still play around with it, like in Zelda. (for some reason, it only had four) You can choose the instrument, which key to play it in (a flat, ect...)
You'll be able to pick the tempo, the different kind of notes (whole, quarter, sixteenth, etc...) The vollume can possibly use a bar to make things easier... Also what kind of rests you want, and slurs for musical effect, and a highlighting tool, to highlight the measures or certain notes, so that you can copy and paste, or put a particular bar an octave higher, or change the tempo or vollume in that particular bar, etc.... Also, be able to write for several instruments at once, so people can play duets and such... Have a whole orchestra maybe... I could draw out the interface maybe...
So even people who don't know music can maybe learn music this way. You can have the name of the notes by each note (very small) so people know what it is.. this way, people may be encouraged to learn music, or practice it...
However, the copyright problem still exists.
I would love to walk through town and watch people playing something, or just have something else to do besides fighting. (I need help to design some original sport or something, as well as other things to do besides fighting... maybe puzzle quests in addition to the other kinds? Other jobs too..)
Slight bump, but something I wanted to add in.
I play on a UO server that does something like this.
Basicly you type in the notes you want to play after a command.
IE.
/play <note> pause <note, note > pause <note> ect ect.
There could be some sort of tabliture for writing down songs for later enjoyment. But I think it should be available at a later skill lever ( if 100 is max, then 60 is ability to write songs down)
This way you can have a band playing with eachother.
Or, if you just want to raise the skill, just clicking the musical instrument will play a note.