Disclaimer ... I've searched and not found a suitable topic that covers this so far, I appologise if there is one and would appreciate anyone pulling up additional discussions or just related information.

Weaponary as it relates to gameplay has many facets and can be discussed in many different ways, but I'm going to try and be a little single minded to try and iron out a single solid idea without 70 pages of addtional material.

Through out fantasy realms, and possibly one of the most characteristic elements of most famous fantasy personages, are the weilded weapons that are suited to and adepted by their users.

A traveling barbarian may use a large club or crude pole arm, and when faced against a traveling knight with a long sword, the typical odds would in reality weigh heavily in one corner. This is one of those times when a game is seperated from reality to further itself. The apparent underdog with a simple blunt weapon could very well be the more powerful opponent due to many different fantasy factors.

In many games fantasy is corrupted, for the Barbarian to stand a chance he would be required to use a weapon of his level, many times this can force the choice from the players hand and turn them to stat hunting for the most effecient means to grind over time.

Where as in fantasy simply putting any weapons into the hands of the more capable foe makes the weapon all the more deadly.

If anything I feel weaponary should grow with the user, the Barbarian may have to repair his wooden club over time, reinforce it, stick a nail through it or decorate it in honor of his tribe. Where as the Knight may have his sword blessed, perhaps he shifts fighting styles to require a meatier bastard sword, sells and rebuys from the player market a suitable replacement again effecting his weapon over time, breaking the blade, having it re-smithed with magical materials.

System wise, a player would have a level of familiarity with any weapon, dependant on his skill with the weapon type and any other modifier (perhaps even as far as a negative modifier for weapon weight vs character strength). This familiarity would improve over time until reaching 100% or possibly more, if another weapon is used it would have its own low modifier recalculated and while used other weapon modifiers would degrade vs the others improvement (with which amounts of degredation could be dependant on the differences between weapons). Individual weapons could possibly, after large amounts of time, be mastered with no degredation to familiarity, possibly with a limited number of mastered weapons per character.

This would connect players to their weapons, allowing Aragon to take the sword of a king and become more powerful as he is skilled enough to use it (high familiarity), Conan to defeat many foes with a seemingly ordinary weapon because his skill and familiarity with it are unmatched. A mage could apprentice with a fine cane and have it grow with his own rising magical power, his weapon would not hold him back and place him into a static market. More exotic weapons would effect the familiarity of unskilled players, Frodo couldn't take Gandalfs staff and suddenly have a mana pool to pull from or be handed a flaming sword and suddenly rise dramatically above his station as a combatant (low or even negative familiarity).

I can tell you that Diablo II had a system like this, each class had it's own weapons that they were though to use and a player could put points into that skill in order to become more profeciant with it. As they put more skill points into it the damage a character did with that weapon type would increase; but with that weapon type only. The weapon skill points could not be transfered. This could be made to fit into PWs` world.

I like the idea of being able to upgrade a weapon and becoming familure with a weapon, and I think becoming familure with a weapon falls under the ammount of skill that a player puts into it.

As for Frodo picking up Gandalfs staff and hoping for his ubar mana pool, Frodo would probley get some of his mana pool, not all, but some. Not because Frodo isn't tall enough, or because he isn't the right race, or because he's not familure with staffs; but because he doesn't have a high enough magery skill to fully tap into the staffs powers.

Many games including Ultima use seperate classes for seperate weapons, its something many of the original pen and paper games have passed down.

Though I feel the system in regards to fantasy play is incomplete without the addtion of familiarity, although as is the commonly used systems are realistic, they are not realistic to fantasy and not tailored to anything more than generalized worlds with more than a handful of players. Most online games run their weapon systems much like single player games, and just have x amount of a powerful weapon depending on the power it has. Doing this doesn't suit, even Diablo a primarily single player game with a good online following used "Uniques", and only now are newer MMOGs starting to come up with customization although currently it is more aimed towards sci-fi weaponary.

The risk to customization is simply a matter of implementation, done poorly you just increase the power of the stat game, alah SWG, and instead of having people search out weapons, they search out upgrades and additions. Although their is no one perfect way, I believe the best way to do something like this in a fantasy setting, is to make the player feel as much a part of their character as possible, if there is only one way to do things (find and upgrade, or search out the better weapon from Champion Spawn A with drop rate of 0.001%), then you create a generalized and limited world. This was the underlying problem with UO, it was prodominently a single player world with hundreds of people doing the same things for the same result and everyone began to know exactly what was coming and how to play the systems rather than the game in a very short space of time. If you allow the player to think up ways to reach their goal, with differing avenues and possibilities, then you have a truely Multiplayer game.

With familiarity you give players 'their' weapon no matter the customization and no matter the number of iterations of it someone else may have, with customization you give each weapon a persistent life span that suits the style of MMOG play, with both in conjuction you give characters weaponary that not only stays with them, but gives their characters even more character, engrossing them in the experience of a real fantasy MMOG, where they arn't limited to a kill, exp, gold, upgrade cycle, and in fact are faced with a system that goes deeper into fantasy realism than the classical fantasy games that once tried to represent fantasy stories interactively.

There are good ideas here, I like a lot of what john says.
I strongly feel that a character's skill, not his eqiupment, should be the biggest factor in his/her ability to survive or do well. I also feel that any character should be able to pick up mostly any item and use it. None of this "Sword of Uberness, requires lvl 200" and other such nonsence.

The familiarity idea is a very nice one, it could start of as a penalty to your skill and as you use the weapon and become accustomed to its reach, balance and other little quirks the penalty lessens and eventualy become a bonus as you master the weapon. You should want to seek out the best craftsmen to lovingly repair( and sharpen in some cases) a weapon that you've got to know so well you consider it a part of who you are.

A long sword is a long sword, there can not be too much differance in how they perform. Sure one might be better balanced, made of better metal and be a bit sharper but it is the skill and luck of its weilder that determins if it hits and how well it hits. So I say no to "Newb sword: 1-4 damage" and "Stupid rare loot sword: "500-1000 damage".

You may have read my thread about a more realistic inventory system, I'll let it spill over into weapons now.
Weapons don't do damage, they are used to do damage and thier physical properties aid in the causing of said damage. Keeping with swords; Asuming you are trying to cut with it. The length of the edge, its sharpness and how much the sword weighs are what will help or hinder a character making a cut with the weapon but his/her skill is more important. Does he know how to swing the weapon so that the maximum ammount of cutting edge is used, etc. I'll not go into example formulas here but I hope you can see what I mean.

I said luck is a factor and it is. It should be possible for a complete novice to get a lucky hit or two past a master and defeat him. Not likely in fair fight, but possible none the less. Mayb PW could have a combat system that is a bit dangerous and brutal, not characters with hundreds of HP, a single well placed blow can be deadly. A character's main defence should not be his ability to soak up tons of damage but his skill in avoiding taking any in the first place.

I must say, I do really like the idea of "familiarity" with a weapon. It does make a lot of sense that someone would be more skilled with a weaker weapon that they have used for a long time than someone who uses a brand new, if not somewhat stronger, weapon. However, just because, for example, I've been fighting with a stick for five years, doesn't mean I'll get a crazy-town advantage over someone who picks up a brand new sword.

Also, you might want to account for not necessarily familiarity with a specific weapon, but a specific design. If I've used a certain model iron sword for a while, it wouldn't make sense that if I were to use another iron sword of the exact same make I would not be as skilled, simply because I'm not familiar with that exact sword itself. Perhaps have a couple different stats for weapons that have no influence besides their physical anatomy. That way, someone who switches weapons that are similar in makeup doesn't lose a lot of points, while someone who changes to a weapon in the same family (ie, one sword to another) which has completely different stats in terms of its make would struggle more in the beginning.

Also, you need to account for simply the element of gameplay. I know how fun it is to go on a huge quest, and in the end finally be rewarded with a sweet weapon, or something like that. It's just part of the fun in playing games. If you make them too realistic, it's not a game anymore. So while it is important to include ideas like this, we should also take into account how much realism we want to include. We just need to make sure that we can incorporate both reality and still keep the elements of gameplay, as unrealistic as they might be, that people have come to love.

In regards to John's statement in his first post regarding the Barbarian vs Knight, this is a problem which is usually addressed naturally. If the Barbarian is a high level with a good weapons skill, he would be able to take on a Knight who has a better weapon but is at a lower level. In this situation, the Barbarian weapon would more or less dictate simply how badly he maims the Knight. So, with something like that, I don't know if there needs to be much concern. A lot of times, gameplay elements will automatically deal with situations like that.

Anyway, just my two cents worth.

I also like the Idea, but my thought is that once your familiar with that class of weapons ( I think you ment this Rizen, but if not here you go)i.e. swords, then becoming familiar with something in its class should be easier.

I also think that catagorys for each weapon is needed and once you learn one that it will be progessivly eaiser to learn another. For example you become familar with your stick, but your sick of just beating up imps and want to take on a human so you pick up a sword and start swinging away. It shouldn't take as long to become familar with it. I not saying you should be 100% familiar with it in less time. More of accustomed with it, 90% familiar with it in less time. The last ten percent would take the normal time. (Until you feel naked without it).

I also like the familiarity idea.
[quote1146167325=Rizen]Also, you might want to account for not necessarily familiarity with a specific weapon, but a specific design. If I've used a certain model iron sword for a while, it wouldn't make sense that if I were to use another iron sword of the exact same make I would not be as skilled, simply because I'm not familiar with that exact sword itself. Perhaps have a couple different stats for weapons that have no influence besides their physical anatomy. That way, someone who switches weapons that are similar in makeup doesn't lose a lot of points, while someone who changes to a weapon in the same family (ie, one sword to another) which has completely different stats in terms of its make would struggle more in the beginning.[/quote1146167325]
How about familiarity to each specific weapon as a bonus, on top of a separate familiarity skills. Familiarity could also be applied to a weapon type, and a weapon style. Swords, Blunt, Axes are common categories for weapon type, but it could go further. In swords you could break it down to short, long, broad, 1H, 2H, etc. These would be the weapon styles. It starts to get complicated the more you break it down, but there is defintely some merit to it.

Thoughts?

P.S. I forgot to mention that Hero's Journey (http://www.play.net/hj/) has a similar idea wherein their weapons actually will level with the character (as they use it). The weapons can then be upgraded and get new abilities as they level. They, however, call this crafting, which is one thing that people loved in Wish.

i dont think we should have it so that each class has there own types of weapon, it seems to be limiting characters.

Cant we have a system like this?
the more the player uses a weapon the stronger he will be using it...like every swing against an opponent gives so much exp in say Swordmastery

like runescape does for magic, the more u practice the better u get etc

I think that's exactly the type of system we have been planning on since the beginning. It is similar to how UO was, which is also what Wish patterned itself after.

As of right now, nothing has been set in stone as to what PW is doing with regards to various weapons. I can tell you that we have been thinking a lot about it. We have been tossing around a lot of ideas.

I like the idea of weapons degrading over time. In the last stage of the beta, Wish had this. I thought it was a good thing. This will cause swords to dull and cause less damage over time. It might even cause them to break. Are you hacking a rock monster with your sword? Then maybe the weapon gets damaged faster.

The idea of weapon familiarity is a good one. It fits in naturally with life too. The more you use something, the more it feels â??rightâ?� in your hands and the more it becomes a part of you. I do not think that this should be something that you can apply skill points to though. This is something that has to come from use. The more you use your sword, the better you get with it. Maybe after a certain level of familiarity is achieved with that sword, you can be considered a â??master swordsmanâ?�. Achieving mastery over a weapon might allow you to use any weapon of similar style equally as well.

I think this idea of mastery extends well to RL too. Take swords for example. If a real world knight only used a broadsword, over time he would become very proficient with broadswords and might become a master. Now take that same knight and give him a rapier and his skill with that type of sword would be very low. The two swords, while both swords, are of completely different styles. One is more suited to hacking and smashing, and the other is more suited to jabbing and poking. Rapiers do not hack and smash very well.

I see no problem with having magical swords in the game. The problem I do have is allowing everyone to get them. I do not want to have a â??sword of ubernessâ?� that everyone can get. If there even is such a sword, then there should be only 1 in the game. Better yet, if a player wants to *craft* a sword of uberness, then I think they should be able to do just that. Even better, I do not think that a single person should be able to craft a sword of uberness. I think that it should take multiple people to create complex magical items. This would force the players to work together in teams.

Lots of good ideas are coming out of this thread. Keep up the good work!

-Mole

I recall a sword from a fantasy book: "The Mis-Enchanted Sword". The sword itself was very uber but with some very serious draw backs.

It could kill any one man for each time it was drawn, after that is acted like any other hunk of steel until sheathed and drawn once more. In fact, in the book, it HAD to kill before it could be put back in its sheathe. It also had a limit on how many times it could this before it destroyed its weilder. No one else could weild it until the prior owner dies.

So while I think uber swords (or any uber weapon for that matter) can be had/made there must be some drawbacks for its greatness...

Perhaps using dregradation as a drawback... Magic sword while sharper require more care... (oil and honing) than mundane ones.... I know this goes against many preconcieved and learned precepts but who says it cannot work this way in this project.???

The book you are talking about is indeed called â??The Misenchanted Swordâ?� and it was written by Lawrence Watt Evans. It is the first novel in his Ethshar series.

Another sword that comes to mind (and what Evans probably based his idea upon) is Stormbringer and its various siblings that occur in Michael Moorcockâ??s various books based upon his Eternal Champion and Multiverse books. Most people are probably familiar with Elric.

For character-made weapons, I am not sure how we would build this into the game. Most people who would craft magic swords would want to craft the uber sword and not give it any penalties. It might be interesting to come up with a huge list of various penalties that weapons can have, and if someone crafts a magic sword we can randomly pick one of those penalties in secret behind the scenes and bestow it on the sword as well.

The only draw back to doing it this way would that the creator/owner of the weapon wouldnâ??t know what the weaponâ??s penalty was or even if it had any. They would be forced to learn of the penalty through use. That would certainly make things fun. Could you imagine trying to wield a sword that would always teleport you some distance away from a battle every time you were about to kill a monster? Imagine the frustration people would feel while they tried to figure out what was going on.

What a great idea!

-Mole

It would be simpler ( and less headache inducing for the player ) if it was known that by putting "magical ability of one shot kill" onto a weapon that it also takes away all AF of the wielder so they are essentially a wet noodle while wielding this sword.

basically a trade-off of sorts... every positive effect has a related negative aeffect to go with it. or possibly, many different ways to get same effect but each way would have a dif negative effect, i.e using "soul of uberness" makes "sword of uberness that gimps stat X" while using "uber rare plant" makes "sword of uberness that gimps stat Y"

[quote1150943397=Mole]
The book you are talking about is indeed called â??The Misenchanted Swordâ?� and it was written by Lawrence Watt Evans. It is the first novel in his Ethshar series.

Another sword that comes to mind (and what Evans probably based his idea upon) is Stormbringer and its various siblings that occur in Michael Moorcockâ??s various books based upon his Eternal Champion and Multiverse books. Most people are probably familiar with Elric.

For character-made weapons, I am not sure how we would build this into the game. Most people who would craft magic swords would want to craft the uber sword and not give it any penalties. It might be interesting to come up with a huge list of various penalties that weapons can have, and if someone crafts a magic sword we can randomly pick one of those penalties in secret behind the scenes and bestow it on the sword as well.

The only draw back to doing it this way would that the creator/owner of the weapon wouldnâ??t know what the weaponâ??s penalty was or even if it had any. They would be forced to learn of the penalty through use. That would certainly make things fun. Could you imagine trying to wield a sword that would always teleport you some distance away from a battle every time you were about to kill a monster? Imagine the frustration people would feel while they tried to figure out what was going on.

What a great idea!

-Mole
[/quote1150943397]

If they were given a random negative affect then there should be a way for the owner/creator to identify(HMMMM....) the affect. perhaps if the sword has more than one it would take more than on attempt to ID each penalty.

[blockquote]Areena said:
It would be simpler ( and less headache inducing for the player ) if it was known that by putting "magical ability of one shot kill" onto a weapon that it also takes away all AF of the wielder so they are essentially a wet noodle while wielding this sword.[/blockquote]

While it would definately make it a bit nicer to the players to know if their weapon has some penalty associated with it, I think that it adds an element of excitement and mystery to the game if we hide it.

What would be more fun in a game: to create a weapon with the possibility of a penalty, or to know exactly what that penalty is at the time of weapon creation?

[blockquote]Hankellin said:
If they were given a random negative affect then there should be a way for the owner/creator to identify(HMMMM....) the affect. perhaps if the sword has more than one it would take more than on attempt to ID each penalty.[/blockquote]

I do think the players should be able to identify any enchantments that are on a weapon, but I don't think it should be as easy as a spell cast. If we do make it a simple spell cast, then it should be a powerful spell. I think having only a few NPC's in the game who can identify the weapon enchantments would be a little more fun.

If we do go ahead and add in this idea of possible weapon penalties, it needs to be random. So there is also a chance that a wespon will have no penalties associated with it. The better a person is at making enchanted weapons the less chance they will have of getting a penalty. However, if they do get a penalty, then the effect is worse.

What other ideas might we be able to incorporate into this?

Keep in mind that these are only ideas at this point. I don't want any people who are reading this and who are new to PW to think that this is set in stone.

-Mole

[quote1151002504=Mole]

What would be more fun in a game: to create a weapon with the possibility of a penalty, or to know exactly what that penalty is at the time of weapon creation?

[/quote1151002504]

Hoenstly I'm pretty sure that I would hate weapon enchanting if it worked that way. Basically all it would do, IMO, is artificially inflate all enchanted weapons.

Sure in the begininng stages of the economy people would probably buy these "misenchanted" items, but once the economy is established and people can afford to basically pay large quantities of "misenchanted" failures, they'll only be willing to accept the perfect enchanments.

Basically I see this as a game breaker in that people who have a well established character will have really nice items because they can afford to have the crafter go through all of the "misses", where as someone who is newer to the game will have to settle for a "flawed" weapon.

That's the way I see it at least

[quote1151008505=Areena]
Basically I see this as a game breaker in that people who have a well established character will have really nice items because they can afford to have the crafter go through all of the "misses", where as someone who is newer to the game will have to settle for a "flawed" weapon.
[/quote1151008505]

One thing I would not want this to become is a way for this to break the game. That was basically my reasoning behind not allowing players to easily find out what "misenchantments" the weapon might have. My thought that if we kept it hidden from players it would take longer for them to figure out.

Maybe if a weapon is misenchanted and the owner dumps it off, then the misenchantment has a possibility of changing. This would mean that a weapon could might change misenchantments from one owner to the next. What do people think of that idea?

Keep in mind that not all misenchantments have to be "bad". Maybe a possible misenchantment is similiar to that of Kring (from the Terry Pratchett novels) and all it does is talk about its previous owners anddisplay flashy lights when carried into battle. Maybe the misenchantment just causes flowers to bloom at the players feet during an attack. Maybe it just causes a cloud to hover above the player's head and follow the player around.

How would we be able to implement something like a misenchantment and not have it ruin the game?

-Mole

Non-penaltied weapons would be VERY expensive in this world I am thinking of and therefore essentially a successful player could get one.

As mole said not all "misenchantments" have to be bad. Bright light on a hit. Complaints of dirty blood... not being cleaned....

any thing to give the player a little extra :p

I think that one of the things that everyone is missing is that mole said something about haveing a team of players make enchanted weapons. I think that is interesting, because the money probally won't be worth the effort, but the weapon itself will. These weapons will have to be given to people. I of course am talking of these uber enchanted weapons.

Another thing I think these teams should have to do is go out to a place where no one is, to that there consintration goes up.
This though adds a new stat, this is just an Idea throw everything you want at it and add or delete if you want.

I'm continuing to just throw out ideas here, but maybe weapon enchantments have limited use. For example, once a player finds out that their weapon isn enchanted, then they need to find a way to "activate" that enchantment.

Anyone ever play "Planescape: Torment"? That was a very cool game. You played a character who was a god (but didn't know it) and you had to travel to different planes to complete quests/tasks. The keys to traveling to different planes were various items that you had to carry/wield/use to open the portals. We could use a similiar idea. Maybe in our game, to activate a certain weapon, you have to wear a specific ring, or carry something in your pack.

[blockquote]Maxwell said:
I think that one of the things that everyone is missing is that mole said something about haveing a team of players make enchanted weapons.[/blockquote]

I think this is a very good idea actually. This way, players can build uber weapons, but one player cannot do it alone. You want an uber sword? Fine, but you have to find 1 person to mine the ore, another person to smelt it into ingots, a 3rd person to smith the sword. And the whole time these 3 people are doing this, they all have to be present and you have to have 10 mages all casting a certain spell the whole time the thing is happening (from mining to smithing). So to create the uber sword, you actualy need 13 people total. To make it even more difficult, the mages to cast this spell can only do it 3 times. Ever.

This gives players the ability to create uber weapons, but it doesn't make it easy. Will these weapons eventually exist? Yes. Will there be a lot of them? No.

I'm not saying that the particular example I penned here is a good idea, but it illustrates a the point. If we did something like this it would really make things interesting.

Thoughts?

-Mole

These misenchantments sound like a cool idea, I think enchantments that would be perceved as better could have more chance of missenchantment that would be perceved as bad in certain senarios. Also random things that have no real bearing on combat such as the glows and other vis effects to give a bit of character it magical items.

In MMOs people are always looking out for the sword with another +1 on it. If we simple never give out exact stats to players the problem is solved. We can have descriptions with proper sentances for the player to read which would represent what their character knows and can see about the weapon.

eg:
"The edge is a bit dull." - player thinks "time to get it sharpened."
"This hammer seems to buzz angrily when goblins are near." - enchanted with +attack/damage against goblins.

I think only letting player read what thier character knows about an item instead of just giving them a block of stats may be the way to go.

[blockquote]Dwilf said:

Also random things that have no real bearing on combat such as the glows and other vis effects to give a bit of character it magical items.[/blockquote]

I agree. For various glows, whirrs and buzzes, no magical effect would be given to the player other than the obvious effect that the player has a sword that makes noise or whatever. It's not going to hit better, or give any plusses to the player, but they might think it will.

[blockquote]Dwilf said:

In MMOs people are always looking out for the sword with another +1 on it. If we simple never give out exact stats to players the problem is solved. We can have descriptions with proper sentances for the player to read which would represent what their character knows and can see about the weapon.[/blockquote]

This solves the problem of everyone knowing what +X their weapon is. I think it would increase playability if we made players figure out what things were and didn't hand them everything. Granted, I am not everyone so what I like may not be what someone else likes.

To satisfy those people who want things handed to them, we can give players the ability to learn what their weapon does but at a price. Maybe there is just one character (npc) in the world who can do this so they would have to track that person down. Just an idea.

-Mole

Assuming the enhancement is partially determined by the makerâ??s skill:

Not knowing what enhancements a weapon has could have a grave impact on the economy.

I make a broad sword. I find that it has an enhancement that increases the force of my blows (Attack +). I try and sell it for a higher price because it has a positive enhancement. How will the buyers know that it has the enhancement?

The other situation is I learn how to level quickly, just enough to make a broad sword. They make one and it has a questionable enhancement (most likely a negative bonus). How will I as a buyer know he isn't lying to me about the enhancement? Sure if he is lying I can black list him and recommend it to my friends too, but what keeps him from sending the money made to his main character, deleting the blisted one, and then making a new one? The new character gets up to a level just enough to make broad swords again and it repeats.

This raises some issues:
1) Products being sold are all of questionable quality.
2) Buyers are buying blind.
3) It allows for easy money scheming/making. (Most people know where this leads in popular MMO's.)


Non-combat effects sound cool. Bells and wistles are fun, attract customers, and are ways to show off. Some effects can help the player. For example the cloud effect can keep the Sun off your back to keep you cooler in heavy armor.

I think the idea of completely hiding all magical properties from the player is a very interesting one. I also think we should make an effort to make it as hard as possible to discern all of the properties through use. That is, some properties should be obvious, like "the sword glows, hums, shakes and practically screams I WANT BLOOOD!!" whenever a goblin is near, while some should be more subtle, like "this sword seems exceptionally well-balanced and light" which could be the result of expert craftsmanship or an enchantment, and some should be nearly or completely undiscernable, for example a completely hidden 20% bonus to damage against brown bears at sunrise if the wielder is wearing pink underwear, with no indication to the player except the fact that the bear loses health slightly faster, which could just as well be because it has a hangover from the party last night..

As Honis sais, it would make trading magical weapons rather difficult, as well as give the player both pleasant and nasty surprises, the sword might for example flat out refuse to strike a certain type of creatures :> Both of these are good things in my opinion.

I also think players should be able to judge the overall quality of a weapon just by looking at it, depending on their skill with that weapon type and weapons in general. When player opens trade window and inspects weapon, player gets a list of indications about its various properties:

The weapon is well-balanced
The weapon is sharp
The weapon is clean, and in good shape
The steel and craftsmanship seems noobish

I also think a player with low skill with a weapon should be just as well off with a cheap sword of quite decent quality as with a masterpiece weapon, so being able to tell the difference wouldn't really matter because the difference wouldn't matter to the player anyway.

[quote1151478896=Mole] If we did something like this it would really make things interesting.

Thoughts?
[/quote1151478896]
Yes. It would make things interesting, and interesting is what we want our game to be.

Alright, lemme see if I have all of this straight...

A blunt, rusty, fragile pick, lowest of the noob weapons, could be made with a character who has a 0 skill in each discipline. He gathers the firewood (low heat), wittles a handle (splinters, breaks easilly), and gathers the ore. He melts the ore down (low heat firewood = lots of impurities) and makes a crude ingot. He hammers the ingot into shape (lack of skill = -20% hitpoints (them hammers hurt when they hit your thumb!), very dull point, very brittle metal. Impurities in ingot result in even more brittle metal, and the low heat wood make the metal just a bit more brittle.) Throw in a little bit of randomization, and the weapon could have a base damage between 1 and 5 (out of 500ish), and the durability to make 20ish hits against unarmored rats. It's a start, at least, and improve's the poor noob's skills enough that the next weapon isn't quite so sucky.

Well, along come members of the Uber L33tness Guild. They have several members who have various skills maxed out at, say, 200. They found out that if they combine their efforts, they can vastly increase the quality of what they make, since no single person can max all required skills. They've also found that when assisting directly, the combined skill increases, up to two other people assisting, adding 10% of their skill each (3 people at 200 = 240 total). The guild decides to make an uber leetness sword, 'cause picks aren't leet. So, they send three guys out to the coal mines, and they bring back super-hot burning coal. Three guys get the core of an ancient hardwood tree for the hilt. Three guys get iron ore that is almost pure steel already. They pass some of the coal and the ore to a team of smelters, who make a perfect steel ingot. While the ingot is still hot (timer for 5 minutes?) and malleble, at its height of receptiveness to spells, the ingot gets passed to enchanters who add spells of lightness, durability, and an electricity based damage spell. The ingot and rest of the coal then gets passed to a blacksmith who folds the steel into a blade of expert ballance, enduring sharpness, and expert endurance. While the blade is still hot, more enchanters come, who add more sharpness, accuracy, and a bloodlust for the guild's least liked race, as well as a damage block against members of their own guild (in case someone outside the guild gets the sword and goes on a PvP rampage). Meanwhile, the hilt is shaped by an expert carpenter, the wood itself is further enchanted, and gold (or various other valuable metals... platinum? Of course, further enchanted) is wrapped around the wood core. A few gems are added to the hilt, and the two items are combined by the recipient with a couple enchanters in place to bind the sword to its owner, adding a few more bonusses that are unique to the character.

All in all, easy for one man to do, but extremely rewarding to have a very large manufacturing chain involved.

Now, let's look at throwing in a little randomness and look at the best case and worst case scenarios... Typical results should fall well in the middle.

Coal -> base 240, random 235 to 245.
Ore -> base 240, random 235 to 245.
Wood -> base 240, random 235 to 245. Chance of spell regarding wood. ( - damage vs treants, + damage vs treants)
Coal + Ore = Ingot -> base 235, 245 (averages of coal and ore), random 230, 250.
Spells + Ingot = Ench. Ingot -> base 230, 250, random 225, 255 (first spell affects quality)
Ench. Ingot + Coal = Ench Blade -> base 230, 250, random 225, 255. (Averages, lowest coal + lowest ingot = 460 / 2 = base. Similiar to highest possible.)
Spells + Ench Blade = Uber Ench Blade -> base 225, 255, random 220, 260.
Wood = Hilt core -> base 235, 245, random 230, 250
Spells + Hilt core = Ench Core -> base 230, 250, random 225, 255
Hilt core + leafing + gems = Uber Ench Hilt -> base 225, 255, random 220, 260
Uber Ench. Blade + Uber Ench. Hilt = Uber Sword of Leetness -> base 220, 260, random 215, 265.
Sword + Bind to User = +10 quality for user only -> final 225, 275, average 250.

Of course, each time an enchantment is added, and each step afterwards, there is a chance for the magic to go wild... More enchantments = more wild magic. If the server had made the worst possible sword given these best possible conditions, there would have been 7 where a bad spell could develop... but with enchanters with a combined skill of 240, there should only be about a 1:240 chance at each step, or for the longest chain of steps for any single spell (say, durability spell on the ingot... ingot to blade to uber blade to sword) that makes a 4:240 chance, or 1:70. (1.4%)

Even worst case, this sword would be dealing massive damage, unless the moon were full, the character's left shoe were untied (metal boots are buckled, not tied. ;) ), and the player had a .pdf file in their C:\ directory (alright, that's stretching it... no searching a player's file structure... but ya get the point, no?). At best, this guy would get flagged for cheating every time he so much as looked at his sword, much less swung it. With all of this work for a sword, could you imagine a full set of armor?

Also, one thing I've been thinking about weapon endurance. Using a blade wears it out... but what do characters do when the players aren't looking? I've yet to see a fully functional restroom in an MMOG, nor characters with the equipment to use those restrooms. (I'm not saying that we should put it in... just pointing out an obvious detour from reality.) So, if characters relieve themselves 'offscreen,' then shouldn't they do other things as well, like dull tasks of patching their armor and sharpening their swords?

So, what I propose is to add a counter that slowly decrements. When a weapon strikes armor, the counter goes up for both, depending on the type of weapon or armor. If the counter exceeds a certain value, the armor/weapon gets damaged, and imparts penalties. If the counter gets much higher than that, then the armor/weapon is destroyed, but until unequiped, still imparts some pretty extreme penalties. (a sword broken at the hilt makes for great iron knuckles, but will likely never be a sword again. Failed armor can be as deadly as a mace to the head; plate mail gets sharp when cut.) As time goes on without more damage being done to the equipment, the counter goes down as the character repairs the armor off screen. If the equipment is in the bank, though, no repairs should be done, and some equipment may deteriorate in the bank.

[blockquote]Honis said:

Assuming the enhancement is partially determined by the makerâ??s skill:
Not knowing what enhancements a weapon has could have a grave impact on the economy.[/blockquote]

Yes and no.
I think that everyone agrees or is moving towards a skill based system seems like the way to go. With a skill based system, the lower the skill the â??worseâ?� you are at something. So if someone were to smith a sword, the first time they tried it they would not be very good. With low skill in sword making, the crafter has a much higher chance of crafting abnormalities into the sword. This would be things like a sword that easily dulls, a brittle sword that breaks easily, etc.

As a crafterâ??s skill climbed higher in sword making, then these abnormalities have a smaller chance of sneaking in. This kind of goes without saying since the smith will be more aware of what they are doing and will understand the process better.

I think this plays very well into the economy. Perhaps there is also a â??barteringâ?� skill or something like that. If a player has a zero skill in swordsmanship, then that player will know little to nothing about swords. How will they know what a good sword is? They wonâ??t. As their skill in swordsmanship increases, the player will â??learnâ?� the difference between a good sword and a bad sword. At this point, the description of the sword can come into play.

When the player first starts out they will not know anything about swords, so sword descriptions can be â??this looks like a nice swordâ?� or something like that. As skill increases, so does knowledge about swords and what a good sword is. At this point, the descriptions can become clearer. Things like â??this sword is of obvious poor craftsmanshipâ?� and â??this sword feels expertly balancedâ?� can be in the description of the sword.

I do not think that this will ruin the economy in any way. In the beginning, new players will be able to buy cheap swords, and wonâ??t know the difference. Higher skilled players will recognize good quality and craftsmanship and will buy better swords. If we did it right, then when people put swords up for sale the description of the sword will be based on the point of view of the buyer. Maybe we can even throw in a helpful shopkeeper every now and then who could point out poor weapons and things like that.

As far as players selling swords, maybe we do things on consignment. Players would go into a shop and pay a small fee to the shopkeeper for the shopkeeper to sell the sword for them. The shopkeeper then sells the sword and gives the money from the sale (minus a small commission) to the player.

The more I think about this consignment idea, the more I like it. This stops people from camping somewhere and selling things (like what happens in L2). This also stops people from lying about what a weapon really is. (Maybe we could even have dishonest shopkeepers?) It also allows us to control the economy a little better. Maybe.

-Mole

I like the ideas concerning skill level relating to how much you know about weapon quality. This would fix my concerns regarding economy.

What if we made an Identification skill set. One could learn what makes a weapon good by other means besides use. This would help player characters who prefer to be resale merchants rather than warriors.

To learn one could read books, pay for a class with a smith, etc. Warriors could still go this route to increase ID skill. This would allow a character who has extreemly high defence skills (probably means he has a larger purse) to skip the lower level weapons and jump start his skills on "harder" chreatures. (Faster sword skill leveling depending on how long reading or classes take.)

Actually.. one comment. I think durability should be the primary difference between a good weapon and a poor one. The secondary difference should be that players with skill lever much higher than the weapon quality should recieve a penalty to their skill level (as opposed to players with skill level much lower than the weapon quality recieving a penalty to weapon quality). All other differences should be tertiary.

And Ghedi, I like your idea about characters repairing/maintaining their equipment while players are logged off.

[blockquote]Honis said:
What if we made an Identification skill set. One could learn what makes a weapon good by other means besides use. This would help player characters who prefer to be resale merchants rather than warriors.[/blockquote]

I really like this idea. It covers those players who want to be active adventurers and those who want to be merchants. Everybody can benefit from having something like this.

Good idea, Honis!

-Mole

Something ghedipunk hinted at, but I don't think he explicitly wrote it: High-grade crafting materials that deteroriate rapidly from the moment they're gathered? Highly magical ore with 60 minutes half-life? Better make sure you have all the other materials ready and a hot forge near by when you gather the ore..