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> Combat requirements
silmaril
post Mar 7 2005, 01:18 PM
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Combat is a central aspect of most MMOGs, and even though no decision has been made about PW having combat, it's a fair assumption to make that it will.

The goal of this thread is to figure out the basics of how combat is going to work. Bring out things seen in other games that worked well, and things that didn't, come with new and original ideas on how to make the combat system, and discuss these ideas.
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silmaril
post Mar 9 2005, 10:03 AM
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I'll start this thread off by looking at the points people have brought up in the main requirements thread then. Again these are just my personal opinions.


I think this is an important issue, but one that must be made implicit, and not explicit. By that I mean that a player should not be able to press a "I don't wanna fight" button and by that being able to move freely between mobs. There should however be areas of the world that are sparsely populated by mobs and/or is populated by non-agressive mobs.

A player deciding never to fight, should however either have to depend on players willing to fight to gain access to certain resources, merchants, NPCs, etc or accept that those are unavailable to him. Players taking on the risks of the world must have some reward other than just becoming better to fight.

I think this is a good requirement for how boss spawns are seen in some MMOGs where, after killing a bunch of mobs, a more powerful version of the same species spawn. Some mob groups should include a leader character though.

Again, I wouldn't have this as a strict requirement. First there must be spawn points, there will be too much killing for a realistic approach (mobs are born), so they must spawn, hence needing a spawn point. I would say that "unless under special circumstances like live content dictating it or special mob species, mobs should not have static spawn points".

Agreed. Archery should be affected by wind, visibility and obstacles. If fighting a mob with allied melee characters between the archer and the mob, the arrow should have a chance of hitting those in between. This will add more strategy to the combat element of the game.

Varied combat effects are good as long as they are indeed that. They must have different effects on your character, be healed in different ways and be inflicted in different ways.

Agreed. Having combat positions affect the moves you can make and the result of the actions you take will make it more interesting.

Aye.

By intuitive I assume it's a good GUI we're talking about, which is a good thing. The important thing is to remove the need for automated action by making it that much more interesting and rewarding to be an active participant in combat.


(I have skipped all the PvP topics for now. Not sure if they belong)
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Fuinelen
post Mar 9 2005, 11:46 AM
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agreed. though some ressources should only be available through hunting (leather, bones, etc). If a pure crafter needs one of those, he can still buy it.


yep .. Bosses should be firmly relegated to LC. As sil pointed out, some types of mobs should have ranks though (orc soldier<orc lieutenant<orc chief in an orc spawn for example)



There should be spawn areas, as there were in the original Wish, but slightly bigger in size. This way, player would know that "this is dragon country" without knowing where exactly to expect them.

bbye,
Fuinelen
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isupreme
post Mar 9 2005, 08:26 PM
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I dont know that i have seen this point discussed so i drop it here now.

Since playing the matrix online i have become aware of the beauty of having differing types of gameplay. It is very nice to have free fire mode where you can attack from a distance, and then be able to go in close for a different type of battle. Interlock combat they call it in MxO. Its advantages are its timing becomes precise (you can tell who does what and counters with what) and the graphics are given a special twist so they look really good.
Besides that there are differing modes of travel. Besides the usual faster buff there is also hyperjump, which changes the 3d feel of the universe immensely. What i am driving at in so many words,

Can we have differing modes of combat?
Times when you choose to be engaged in battle in a particular way which then higlights the event.
ie: the camera views may change, the music, your abilities all differ with differnt modes.
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silmaril
post Mar 10 2005, 01:26 AM
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Don't know if it has, but even if it has been, feel free to bring it up again here. It is the threads in the requirements forum that will form the basis of the game we will make.

Since playing the matrix online i have become aware of the beauty of having differing types of gameplay. It is very nice to have free fire mode where you can attack from a distance, and then be able to go in close for a different type of battle. Interlock combat they call it in MxO. Its advantages are its timing becomes precise (you can tell who does what and counters with what) and the graphics are given a special twist so they look really good.
Besides that there are differing modes of travel. Besides the usual faster buff there is also hyperjump, which changes the 3d feel of the universe immensely. What i am driving at in so many words,

Can we have differing modes of combat?
Times when you choose to be engaged in battle in a particular way which then higlights the event.
ie: the camera views may change, the music, your abilities all differ with differnt modes.

I think this is a very good idea. Making different parts of the game, even different parts of combat itself, different, can make for a very interesting game. Care must however be taken to make too drastic changes so players will see the initial learning curve of the game mechanics as too steep.

More detailed ideas on how this could be done would be very welcome I think :)
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Lucky_Luciano
post Mar 10 2005, 07:31 AM
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Agree. And give people a reason why there is a boss-character around (for example: cause they are guarding a treasure-chest, gathering resources for their evil plans, keeping hostages, etc...)


Again, I wouldn't have this as a strict requirement. First there must be spawn points, there will be too much killing for a realistic approach (mobs are born), so they must spawn, hence needing a spawn point. I would say that "unless under special circumstances like live content dictating it or special mob species, mobs should not have static spawn points".
Again, agree.


Agreed. Archery should be affected by wind, visibility and obstacles. If fighting a mob with allied melee characters between the archer and the mob, the arrow should have a chance of hitting those in between. This will add more strategy to the combat element of the game.
While this sounds beautiful, remember that PW will feature a PnC movement system. Stepping away from obstacles or side-stepping might not be *that* trivial. This will possible only induce frustration.


Varied combat effects are good as long as they are indeed that. They must have different effects on your character, be healed in different ways and be inflicted in different ways.
! :) I made a text about this some time ago, I'll post it here later on.
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silmaril
post Mar 10 2005, 07:48 AM
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While this sounds beautiful, remember that PW will feature a PnC movement system. Stepping away from obstacles or side-stepping might not be *that* trivial. This will possible only induce frustration.
But it doesn't have to be solved by stepping away like in WASD games to get a clear shot. If a character occupies the slot between you and a mob, you will have a chance of hitting that character with ranged weapons. We could have an optional auto-move function that would move you to a position with less chance of inflicting damage on allies.


1
2 M 3
4

..X..


If X is the ranged character and M is the mob, attacks from any of the dotted positions or the X position itself would have a high chance of hitting character 4, a smaller chance of hitting characters 2 and 3 and almost no chance of hitting character 1.

If no characters were in position 3, the auto-move function could move our archer to the closest position which would be on the "right side" of the mob to get a clear shot and thus removing the chance of hitting any allies.

The bottom line would be to introduce a strategy element: Think about how you go into battle and which kind of attacks your group got. I think this could make combat more interesting and one step on the way to remove it from being just a click-party.
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Jerky
post Mar 10 2005, 05:52 PM
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I agree with all the items mentioned, but think there can even be more to it. With a different combat system that accounts for penalties and hit placement, we need something more to set us apart. That something could be combos. I don't know if this is something that would be good or not, I am just racking my brain for something fun to add to the game.

Combos could be something that is learned through character level, but it would be up to player skill to remember it and to do it right. This is like the game Blade of Darkness (Sword of Vengence) (which is one of my favorites as far as combat goes. I think this adds more than just 'clicking buttons' that the average MMORPG has to offer. Combos can be combos of combos, at high levels, which could lead to a thrid super combo. This could be open only to the very high skill levels.

Chime in, now is the time to help refine ideas like this. :)


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Melanthe
post Mar 10 2005, 07:18 PM
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Regarding archery, I would like to see a separate thread to address the combat issues.

I'd like to see archery more "realistic" in terms of being able to shoot from hidden locations and possibly from trees, along with several other aspects which would make it possible to hunt alone instead of having to always have a tank around to occupy the mob. Since I know this will be controversial I'd suggest a separate thread.


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isupreme
post Mar 10 2005, 07:39 PM
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skill tree with ability to move skill abilities from one area to another so a character can be a tank or mage depending on the day, if the player has taken the time to enable both. No penelty for changing and keep it simple as changing clothes and inventory.
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Blacksmile
post Mar 10 2005, 08:05 PM
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Can only agree partly here, while i think it should be able to train in both areas and changing between the style of fighting for instance we should not let a character reach mastery in to many fields.
Also i think while it should not need massive amounts of money or time to switch from mage to tank it should not be possible to do so just with drawing the appropriate items in place, maybe even during combat. It should be taken into account, that getting in/out an armor is a time consuming process. Not that i want characters changing armor to stand around for five minutes idle because they change armor but changing from mage to tank should not be doable whilst in a battle and possibly take some time or "a place to rest" like an inn or something.
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sblmnl
post Mar 11 2005, 06:34 PM
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I agree with no "penalty" for changing in the sense that lets say I'm a mage who also has some skill in swords, if I take the trouble to carry a sword around with me I should be able to equip and use it (to the extent that my skill will allow) without any fuss. But unless I also change my armour I can expect to take a lot of damage at close quarters with the target...

I do agree though that if s/he wants to spend significant time training up swords the mage should have to sacrifice some expertise in some other skill/attribute - the skill decay idea mentioned in other threads would maybe suffice - but that's a different discussion.

In terms of combat, rather than getting into timer penalties or needing to go to an inn to change armour etc etc we can get around this particular issue easily (and realistically I think) by just making it *weigh* something.. therefore costing the mage reagent space if s/he decides to carry it around with him/her. Also, having to stop in the heat of battle, undress, and strap on your armour piece by piece, even if each piece is hotkey-able, would be risky enough that you'd think twice about doing it I reckon. And there could also be the possibility that when you die you might lose some of your xpensive armour ( and whatever else is lying around in your pack) - there didnt really seem to be enough risk attached to dying in PW, it was more of an inconvenience but again, thats another discussion.

To me the really attractive aspect of PW as that it was all about enabling individuals to make their own risk/reward choices, not "you cant do this here" and lots of rules/restrictions. Let's not lose sight of it, even in relatively minor decisions like that... and keeping it simple is usually the best solution ;-)
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isupreme
post Mar 11 2005, 07:08 PM
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To move from one skill tree to another simply go to the bank or other reststop, change out your armor and weapons.
Then move your abilitiy choice from one to the other.

Go out and fight..........

Dont enable this type of choosing in mid battle.
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sblmnl
post Mar 11 2005, 07:12 PM
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Can we have differing modes of combat?
Times when you choose to be engaged in battle in a particular way which then higlights the event.
ie: the camera views may change, the music, your abilities all differ with differnt modes.

I think this is a very good idea. Making different parts of the game, even different parts of combat itself, different, can make for a very interesting game. Care must however be taken to make too drastic changes so players will see the initial learning curve of the game mechanics as too steep.

More detailed ideas on how this could be done would be very welcome I think :)

I havent played MXO - so perhaps Im not undestanding what you're describing properly - but rather than having "modes" which sounds a bit clunky could it be done seamlessly according to the type of weapon you have equipped?

Example: bows in Wish couldn't shoot accurately closer than their range (or at all actually) so in PW if you are within bowshot range for your particular weapon you'd be in the free-fire mode; then if you run closer than your range, when you pull your dagger from your belt you'd be in close range mode - the point is it should happen behind the scenes, all you should need to *do* is move and equip your weapon. This would dovetail pretty well with the tactical archery/spatial ideas earlier in this thread I think - contingent on the movement system being very very smooth and intuitive.

I really like the idea of "learning" combat combos and advanced combos too. Makes sense from a rp pov as well, you spend all that time practicing with your sword/staff/whatever, you should be able to do more than just thwack something with it. Where appropriate to the race/weapon type, I'd like to see some elegant chinese-style moves - even down to the animation for sheathing/unsheathing weapons.
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sblmnl
post Mar 11 2005, 07:18 PM
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To move from one skill tree to another simply go to the bank or other reststop, change out your armor and weapons.
Then move your abilitiy choice from one to the other.

Go out and fight..........

Dont enable this type of choosing in mid battle. Why not? If I carry them around with me (risking losing them ) why should I not be able to choose to equip them wherever I like? Of course if I want to minimise the risk I would do it in an inn or a safe place.

But if I wish to take the risk, for tactical reasons, to be defenceless in the open forest while I change my armour, isn't that my decision?

And I don't like the idea to have to "move your ability choice", I think a good design would make this all seamless... you still make the decision what ability you will use, but by choosing the weapon not clicking a button somewhere.
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post Mar 12 2005, 11:10 PM
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I havent played MXO - so perhaps Im not undestanding what you're describing properly - but rather than having "modes" which sounds a bit clunky could it be done seamlessly according to the type of weapon you have equipped?


This is the beauty of the interlock system. In MxO you aren't really "equipped" with a weapon until combat. There is two distinct ways of doing combat. Ranged, and close ranged(interlock). If you initialize combat with a program, ranged ability, or gun you'll be in ranged combat. You'll be free to move around like in most games. However, if you...
1. Engage an opponent in melee combat
2. Engaged by an opponent in melee combat(even if you were using a ranged weapon)
3. Switch to a range weapon after engaging an opponent in melee combat
You'll be in interlock which is the close ranged fighting system. You can still use your gun, ranged abilities, programs, etc... its just now you are stuck in this rockem-sockem system and are within melee range of your opponent.
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post Mar 12 2005, 11:12 PM
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Bah, didn't sign in and can't edit...

But moving in and out of interlock is seamless. Its not like the player has to activate which system he or she is in. It happens automatically based on the conditions I mentioned above.
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Blacksmile
post Mar 14 2005, 11:26 AM
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Why not? If I carry them around with me (risking losing them ) why should I not be able to choose to equip them wherever I like? Of course if I want to minimise the risk I would do it in an inn or a safe place.

But if I wish to take the risk, for tactical reasons, to be defenceless in the open forest while I change my armour, isn't that my decision?

And I don't like the idea to have to "move your ability choice", I think a good design would make this all seamless... you still make the decision what ability you will use, but by choosing the weapon not clicking a button somewhere.
I fully agree, that however that would look like locking parts of your abilities is no good idea. As long as you meet the requirements for an ability to be used (have the correct weapon for fighting / not be equipped with armor for magic or whatever it would look like...) you should be allowed to use it.

The idea to reduce the ability of equipping/unequipping armor within the time needed to drag the items in the right positions in the inventory in every situation arose in my head as it a) would reduce immersion in my eyes if the full plated warrior transformed into a mage within 3 seconds and b) would give that player an unfair advantage over more specialized characters.
Maybe a good idea would be to make (un)equipping armor time consuming (maybe dependant on how hard it is to get into that specific piece of armor) while in environments where this time could matter. And allow characters to change armor in inns or their home where they are alone in no time as it wouldnt destroy immersion for anyone else there and be no advantage over anyone else.
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silmaril
post Mar 14 2005, 11:37 AM
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The idea to reduce the ability of equipping/unequipping armor within the time needed to drag the items in the right positions in the inventory in every situation arose in my head as it a) would reduce immersion in my eyes if the full plated warrior transformed into a mage within 3 seconds and b) would give that player an unfair advantage over more specialized characters.
Maybe a good idea would be to make (un)equipping armor time consuming (maybe dependant on how hard it is to get into that specific piece of armor) while in environments where this time could matter. And allow characters to change armor in inns or their home where they are alone in no time as it wouldnt destroy immersion for anyone else there and be no advantage over anyone else.
I agree. If possible there should be a way to change clothes fast in a private place somewhere, but I don't see that as a show-stopper. Putting on and taking off armor should indeed take quite some time and longer for heavier types of armor. A suit of plate is actually quite impossible to get on without someone to help you, but having aid is probably not a good requirement as it would make it unneccessary hard for the solo players.
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post Mar 15 2005, 05:02 PM
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here is a posible idea.

the avatar can only carry one set of armor (the one he or she is wearing) and a limited amount of weapons the can be switched on the fly( like in a fps).

if you want to switch armors on the field you need a mount or pet to cary it for you and not during combat.

depending on the size of the weapons and what the armor alows you you can have different weapons on different places on the body.

for example: a first level could carry one sword and one dager. But as you increase in level, you can have different positions for weapon of different sizes and power. You could have on your back you could have two swords enabling duel welding, One big sword, or one shield that could give a defencive bonus, or a back pack to increase inventory.

now the weapon is not set to a limited range of damage and speed. but instead the are variable depending on the charactors skills. so a better sword would be able to more efficently be able to translate the chars skills to combat stats. Also depending the on the combination of weapons you use can also change combat stats.

the idea is that anyone can create any combat combination they want and for some extra realism.
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