Combat: Weaponary, "Strong sticks and weak swords." Options

[Dwilf]

These misenchantments sound like a cool idea, I think enchantments that would be perceved as better could have more chance of missenchantment that would be perceved as bad in certain senarios. Also random things that have no real bearing on combat such as the glows and other vis effects to give a bit of character it magical items.

In MMOs people are always looking out for the sword with another +1 on it. If we simple never give out exact stats to players the problem is solved. We can have descriptions with proper sentances for the player to read which would represent what their character knows and can see about the weapon.

eg:
"The edge is a bit dull." - player thinks "time to get it sharpened."
"This hammer seems to buzz angrily when goblins are near." - enchanted with +attack/damage against goblins.

I think only letting player read what thier character knows about an item instead of just giving them a block of stats may be the way to go.

[Mole]

[blockquote]Dwilf said:

Also random things that have no real bearing on combat such as the glows and other vis effects to give a bit of character it magical items.[/blockquote]

I agree. For various glows, whirrs and buzzes, no magical effect would be given to the player other than the obvious effect that the player has a sword that makes noise or whatever. It's not going to hit better, or give any plusses to the player, but they might think it will.

[blockquote]Dwilf said:

In MMOs people are always looking out for the sword with another +1 on it. If we simple never give out exact stats to players the problem is solved. We can have descriptions with proper sentances for the player to read which would represent what their character knows and can see about the weapon.[/blockquote]

This solves the problem of everyone knowing what +X their weapon is. I think it would increase playability if we made players figure out what things were and didn't hand them everything. Granted, I am not everyone so what I like may not be what someone else likes.

To satisfy those people who want things handed to them, we can give players the ability to learn what their weapon does but at a price. Maybe there is just one character (npc) in the world who can do this so they would have to track that person down. Just an idea.

-Mole

[Honis]

Assuming the enhancement is partially determined by the makerâ??s skill:

Not knowing what enhancements a weapon has could have a grave impact on the economy.

I make a broad sword. I find that it has an enhancement that increases the force of my blows (Attack +). I try and sell it for a higher price because it has a positive enhancement. How will the buyers know that it has the enhancement?

The other situation is I learn how to level quickly, just enough to make a broad sword. They make one and it has a questionable enhancement (most likely a negative bonus). How will I as a buyer know he isn't lying to me about the enhancement? Sure if he is lying I can black list him and recommend it to my friends too, but what keeps him from sending the money made to his main character, deleting the blisted one, and then making a new one? The new character gets up to a level just enough to make broad swords again and it repeats.

This raises some issues:
1) Products being sold are all of questionable quality.
2) Buyers are buying blind.
3) It allows for easy money scheming/making. (Most people know where this leads in popular MMO's.)


Non-combat effects sound cool. Bells and wistles are fun, attract customers, and are ways to show off. Some effects can help the player. For example the cloud effect can keep the Sun off your back to keep you cooler in heavy armor.

[Minthos]

I think the idea of completely hiding all magical properties from the player is a very interesting one. I also think we should make an effort to make it as hard as possible to discern all of the properties through use. That is, some properties should be obvious, like "the sword glows, hums, shakes and practically screams I WANT BLOOOD!!" whenever a goblin is near, while some should be more subtle, like "this sword seems exceptionally well-balanced and light" which could be the result of expert craftsmanship or an enchantment, and some should be nearly or completely undiscernable, for example a completely hidden 20% bonus to damage against brown bears at sunrise if the wielder is wearing pink underwear, with no indication to the player except the fact that the bear loses health slightly faster, which could just as well be because it has a hangover from the party last night..

As Honis sais, it would make trading magical weapons rather difficult, as well as give the player both pleasant and nasty surprises, the sword might for example flat out refuse to strike a certain type of creatures :> Both of these are good things in my opinion.

I also think players should be able to judge the overall quality of a weapon just by looking at it, depending on their skill with that weapon type and weapons in general. When player opens trade window and inspects weapon, player gets a list of indications about its various properties:

The weapon is well-balanced
The weapon is sharp
The weapon is clean, and in good shape
The steel and craftsmanship seems noobish

I also think a player with low skill with a weapon should be just as well off with a cheap sword of quite decent quality as with a masterpiece weapon, so being able to tell the difference wouldn't really matter because the difference wouldn't matter to the player anyway.

[Minthos]

[quote1151478896=Mole] If we did something like this it would really make things interesting.

Thoughts?
[/quote1151478896]
Yes. It would make things interesting, and interesting is what we want our game to be.

[ghedipunk]

Alright, lemme see if I have all of this straight...

A blunt, rusty, fragile pick, lowest of the noob weapons, could be made with a character who has a 0 skill in each discipline. He gathers the firewood (low heat), wittles a handle (splinters, breaks easilly), and gathers the ore. He melts the ore down (low heat firewood = lots of impurities) and makes a crude ingot. He hammers the ingot into shape (lack of skill = -20% hitpoints (them hammers hurt when they hit your thumb!), very dull point, very brittle metal. Impurities in ingot result in even more brittle metal, and the low heat wood make the metal just a bit more brittle.) Throw in a little bit of randomization, and the weapon could have a base damage between 1 and 5 (out of 500ish), and the durability to make 20ish hits against unarmored rats. It's a start, at least, and improve's the poor noob's skills enough that the next weapon isn't quite so sucky.

Well, along come members of the Uber L33tness Guild. They have several members who have various skills maxed out at, say, 200. They found out that if they combine their efforts, they can vastly increase the quality of what they make, since no single person can max all required skills. They've also found that when assisting directly, the combined skill increases, up to two other people assisting, adding 10% of their skill each (3 people at 200 = 240 total). The guild decides to make an uber leetness sword, 'cause picks aren't leet. So, they send three guys out to the coal mines, and they bring back super-hot burning coal. Three guys get the core of an ancient hardwood tree for the hilt. Three guys get iron ore that is almost pure steel already. They pass some of the coal and the ore to a team of smelters, who make a perfect steel ingot. While the ingot is still hot (timer for 5 minutes?) and malleble, at its height of receptiveness to spells, the ingot gets passed to enchanters who add spells of lightness, durability, and an electricity based damage spell. The ingot and rest of the coal then gets passed to a blacksmith who folds the steel into a blade of expert ballance, enduring sharpness, and expert endurance. While the blade is still hot, more enchanters come, who add more sharpness, accuracy, and a bloodlust for the guild's least liked race, as well as a damage block against members of their own guild (in case someone outside the guild gets the sword and goes on a PvP rampage). Meanwhile, the hilt is shaped by an expert carpenter, the wood itself is further enchanted, and gold (or various other valuable metals... platinum? Of course, further enchanted) is wrapped around the wood core. A few gems are added to the hilt, and the two items are combined by the recipient with a couple enchanters in place to bind the sword to its owner, adding a few more bonusses that are unique to the character.

All in all, easy for one man to do, but extremely rewarding to have a very large manufacturing chain involved.

Now, let's look at throwing in a little randomness and look at the best case and worst case scenarios... Typical results should fall well in the middle.

Coal -> base 240, random 235 to 245.
Ore -> base 240, random 235 to 245.
Wood -> base 240, random 235 to 245. Chance of spell regarding wood. ( - damage vs treants, + damage vs treants)
Coal + Ore = Ingot -> base 235, 245 (averages of coal and ore), random 230, 250.
Spells + Ingot = Ench. Ingot -> base 230, 250, random 225, 255 (first spell affects quality)
Ench. Ingot + Coal = Ench Blade -> base 230, 250, random 225, 255. (Averages, lowest coal + lowest ingot = 460 / 2 = base. Similiar to highest possible.)
Spells + Ench Blade = Uber Ench Blade -> base 225, 255, random 220, 260.
Wood = Hilt core -> base 235, 245, random 230, 250
Spells + Hilt core = Ench Core -> base 230, 250, random 225, 255
Hilt core + leafing + gems = Uber Ench Hilt -> base 225, 255, random 220, 260
Uber Ench. Blade + Uber Ench. Hilt = Uber Sword of Leetness -> base 220, 260, random 215, 265.
Sword + Bind to User = +10 quality for user only -> final 225, 275, average 250.

Of course, each time an enchantment is added, and each step afterwards, there is a chance for the magic to go wild... More enchantments = more wild magic. If the server had made the worst possible sword given these best possible conditions, there would have been 7 where a bad spell could develop... but with enchanters with a combined skill of 240, there should only be about a 1:240 chance at each step, or for the longest chain of steps for any single spell (say, durability spell on the ingot... ingot to blade to uber blade to sword) that makes a 4:240 chance, or 1:70. (1.4%)

Even worst case, this sword would be dealing massive damage, unless the moon were full, the character's left shoe were untied (metal boots are buckled, not tied. ;) ), and the player had a .pdf file in their C:\ directory (alright, that's stretching it... no searching a player's file structure... but ya get the point, no?). At best, this guy would get flagged for cheating every time he so much as looked at his sword, much less swung it. With all of this work for a sword, could you imagine a full set of armor?

[ghedipunk]

Also, one thing I've been thinking about weapon endurance. Using a blade wears it out... but what do characters do when the players aren't looking? I've yet to see a fully functional restroom in an MMOG, nor characters with the equipment to use those restrooms. (I'm not saying that we should put it in... just pointing out an obvious detour from reality.) So, if characters relieve themselves 'offscreen,' then shouldn't they do other things as well, like dull tasks of patching their armor and sharpening their swords?

So, what I propose is to add a counter that slowly decrements. When a weapon strikes armor, the counter goes up for both, depending on the type of weapon or armor. If the counter exceeds a certain value, the armor/weapon gets damaged, and imparts penalties. If the counter gets much higher than that, then the armor/weapon is destroyed, but until unequiped, still imparts some pretty extreme penalties. (a sword broken at the hilt makes for great iron knuckles, but will likely never be a sword again. Failed armor can be as deadly as a mace to the head; plate mail gets sharp when cut.) As time goes on without more damage being done to the equipment, the counter goes down as the character repairs the armor off screen. If the equipment is in the bank, though, no repairs should be done, and some equipment may deteriorate in the bank.

[Mole]

[blockquote]Honis said:

Assuming the enhancement is partially determined by the makerâ??s skill:
Not knowing what enhancements a weapon has could have a grave impact on the economy.[/blockquote]

Yes and no.
I think that everyone agrees or is moving towards a skill based system seems like the way to go. With a skill based system, the lower the skill the â??worseâ?� you are at something. So if someone were to smith a sword, the first time they tried it they would not be very good. With low skill in sword making, the crafter has a much higher chance of crafting abnormalities into the sword. This would be things like a sword that easily dulls, a brittle sword that breaks easily, etc.

As a crafterâ??s skill climbed higher in sword making, then these abnormalities have a smaller chance of sneaking in. This kind of goes without saying since the smith will be more aware of what they are doing and will understand the process better.

I think this plays very well into the economy. Perhaps there is also a â??barteringâ?� skill or something like that. If a player has a zero skill in swordsmanship, then that player will know little to nothing about swords. How will they know what a good sword is? They wonâ??t. As their skill in swordsmanship increases, the player will â??learnâ?� the difference between a good sword and a bad sword. At this point, the description of the sword can come into play.

When the player first starts out they will not know anything about swords, so sword descriptions can be â??this looks like a nice swordâ?� or something like that. As skill increases, so does knowledge about swords and what a good sword is. At this point, the descriptions can become clearer. Things like â??this sword is of obvious poor craftsmanshipâ?� and â??this sword feels expertly balancedâ?� can be in the description of the sword.

I do not think that this will ruin the economy in any way. In the beginning, new players will be able to buy cheap swords, and wonâ??t know the difference. Higher skilled players will recognize good quality and craftsmanship and will buy better swords. If we did it right, then when people put swords up for sale the description of the sword will be based on the point of view of the buyer. Maybe we can even throw in a helpful shopkeeper every now and then who could point out poor weapons and things like that.

As far as players selling swords, maybe we do things on consignment. Players would go into a shop and pay a small fee to the shopkeeper for the shopkeeper to sell the sword for them. The shopkeeper then sells the sword and gives the money from the sale (minus a small commission) to the player.

The more I think about this consignment idea, the more I like it. This stops people from camping somewhere and selling things (like what happens in L2). This also stops people from lying about what a weapon really is. (Maybe we could even have dishonest shopkeepers?) It also allows us to control the economy a little better. Maybe.

-Mole

[Honis]

I like the ideas concerning skill level relating to how much you know about weapon quality. This would fix my concerns regarding economy.

What if we made an Identification skill set. One could learn what makes a weapon good by other means besides use. This would help player characters who prefer to be resale merchants rather than warriors.

To learn one could read books, pay for a class with a smith, etc. Warriors could still go this route to increase ID skill. This would allow a character who has extreemly high defence skills (probably means he has a larger purse) to skip the lower level weapons and jump start his skills on "harder" chreatures. (Faster sword skill leveling depending on how long reading or classes take.)

[Minthos]

Actually.. one comment. I think durability should be the primary difference between a good weapon and a poor one. The secondary difference should be that players with skill lever much higher than the weapon quality should recieve a penalty to their skill level (as opposed to players with skill level much lower than the weapon quality recieving a penalty to weapon quality). All other differences should be tertiary.

And Ghedi, I like your idea about characters repairing/maintaining their equipment while players are logged off.

[Mole]

[blockquote]Honis said:
What if we made an Identification skill set. One could learn what makes a weapon good by other means besides use. This would help player characters who prefer to be resale merchants rather than warriors.[/blockquote]

I really like this idea. It covers those players who want to be active adventurers and those who want to be merchants. Everybody can benefit from having something like this.

Good idea, Honis!

-Mole

[Minthos]

Something ghedipunk hinted at, but I don't think he explicitly wrote it: High-grade crafting materials that deteroriate rapidly from the moment they're gathered? Highly magical ore with 60 minutes half-life? Better make sure you have all the other materials ready and a hot forge near by when you gather the ore..